Attorney Went Hiatus

[IvoryAngel]

Okay back to the drawing board. My attorney decided to pursue employment opportunities elsewhere. Which leaves me starting all over again.

I have been working at home. I only make about 1000.00 a month so basically I just pay my household bills and nothing else. Several loan companies have persuaded garnishment against me however they cannot because I am not technically employed. I am an independent contractor.

Then recently a fortune 100 company found me and requested I work for them. Well, I would be stupid to pass up. But there goes my income up up and up. Not that I cant use the money I mean we are barely surviving right now. Obviously I do not want creditors to try and garnish me at my new job. But this is where it gets worse. I was trying to hold back on filing and pay my car off. I owe like 1800.00 now. The special circumstances with it and always being questionable made me decide to pay it out before filing.

So, now I dont know what to do!!! I feel the stress coming back and quickly like a freight train.

Anyone have any ideas? I was wondering if I could pay my court fee $300.00. And hold the collectors and garnishments off. Log enough to pay my car off. But then there is the whole why did you pay your car off and not your debt. UGH UGH UGH UGH!!!

[Logan]

Get a new attorney. Educate yourself on this board so you know what you're talking about and then do a little shopping.

When does your new job start?

Logan

[ProSefromCA]

Hi IvoryAngel,

Have no fear, there is a simple solution. If I were you I'd file Chpt. 7 ASAP!!! If your income goes over the median for your state you might be pushed into Chapter 13 and have to repay. The bankruptcy process takes months. Once you file you immediately get an "automatic stay" which means you are protected against any debt collection activities. Here is a quote from a legal site:

"In a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, you may continue to pay your mortgage or your car loan and keep the house or car by signing a "Reaffirmation Agreement". In effect, the reaffirmation agreement takes the place of your original agreement and essentially makes it as though you have not filed a bankruptcy on those particular loans"

[IvoryAngel]

Thanks for the info. This is what I was thinking of doing. Going ahead and finding a new dependable attorney then paying my 300.00 so I can avoid garnishments etc. But how long can I hold off finishing the process? I mean can I hold them off long enough to pay off 1800.00 on my vehicle? Months wise do you think till end of year or at least four or five months?

Thankfully I have I do not go over the means test. I have been there already. I have spent alot of time on this board learning. Honestly I think like they disclose that you have to take a credit counseling class, I think it should be recommended that everyone visit this board.

I have gotten information that could save me from terrible turmoil here. I appreciate it bunches!! That also explains why I keep coming back.

Hi IvoryAngel,

Have no fear, there is a simple solution. If I were you I'd file Chpt. 7 ASAP!!! If your income goes over the median for your state you might be pushed into Chapter 13 and have to repay. The bankruptcy process takes months. Once you file you immediately get an "automatic stay" which means you are protected against any debt collection activities. Here is a quote from a legal site:

"In a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, you may continue to pay your mortgage or your car loan and keep the house or car by signing a "Reaffirmation Agreement". In effect, the reaffirmation agreement takes the place of your original agreement and essentially makes it as though you have not filed a bankruptcy on those particular loans"

[ProSefromCA]

"But how long can I hold off finishing the process? I mean can I hold them off long enough to pay off 1800.00 on my vehicle?"

If you ARE going to file Chapter 7 my advice is to go ahead and do it ASAP! Don't lag with anything. Make up your mind and just get DONE with it. If you read this board you will see others that say they wished they did it earlier. The sooner you file and finish, the sooner you can have peace of mind and start rebuilding your financial situation, including credit score. Again, all you need to do to keep your vehicle is the Reaffirmation of that debt - then it's like you didn't file for that particular item, and you still pay for it. So why wait? The future may bring you a financial boost making it harder to qualify for Chpt 7!

[IvoryAngel]

"But how long can I hold off finishing the process? I mean can I hold them off long enough to pay off 1800.00 on my vehicle?"

If you ARE going to file Chapter 7 my advice is to go ahead and do it ASAP! Don't lag with anything. Make up your mind and just get DONE with it. If you read this board you will see others that say they wished they did it earlier. The sooner you file and finish, the sooner you can have peace of mind and start rebuilding your financial situation, including credit score. Again, all you need to do to keep your vehicle is the Reaffirmation of that debt - then it's like you didn't file for that particular item, and you still pay for it. So why wait? The future may bring you a financial boost making it harder to qualify for Chpt 7!

Right I agree the faster the better I am not opposed to that. I have inserted the link about the situation with my car. Its like walking a tight rope you dont know which side you are going to fall. Technically on an attourny's stand point I am in possession of my car illegally. So, this is why I want to pay the car off before I finalize my bankruptcy. This is why I am still months down the road and have not filed. My car is the only thing holding me back at this point. This is why I was wanting to know if I pay the court fee and obtain an attourny and agree with him to pay him off by say November and pay my car off between now and then will they make a big hooplah over it??

http://www.bankruptcyforum.com/showthread.php?t=13794&highlight=ivoryangel

[ProSefromCA]

Okay, now I see what you mean. You've got a separate problem! All the talk in the other thread involved bankruptcy, but I'm going to explain now about your separate subject!

First, of all I'm telling you how things work in California. I assume this would be the same as the Oklahoma DMV. There are 2 spots on the Title of a vehicle: Lien-holder and Registered owner. The lien holder has financial legal ownership for the vehicle. So, when you finance through a bank for a new car they pay the dealership the full amount, and list themselves as Lien-holder on the Title and you as the Registered owner. When you pay the car off, they will sign themselves off and mail you this Title. You can then take this to the DMV and they will update their record and send you an updated Title with NO lien-holders which means the registered owner listed (you) fully owns the car. You can then sell the car if you want. Now, that's how it works.

When that father you mentioned bought the car it was financed through Nissan Credit. Nissan Credit is the Lien-holder, and the father is listed as the Registered owner. He can also list his daughter as another registered owner, but the debt is in HIS name. HE is responsible to pay Nissan Credit, because HE signed the loan papers, and got those loan terms.

Now. You are saying that you "took over" paying for the car. As far as I know this is not possible legally UNLESS Nissan Credit agreed to close his loan account and have him (and if necessary his daughter) sign their "release of interest" as registered owners on the TITLE. Then Nissan Credit would add YOU as registered owner on the Title, and open a loan for you, (probably with different repayment terms) for the balance they need paid. If this didn't happen you DON'T OWN THE CAR! You MUST be listed on the TITLE!!! Otherwise, you are paying for sombody else's loan for no reason. It could get paid off, and you get no ownership! YOU don't have that debt. So it can't be listed in your Bankruptcy anyway! I repeat: if Nissan Credit did not have you sign paperwork for a loan, you are NOT in debt to them!

Please explain what you did involving this car, because from what I understand you had better hope you can trust this guy who you are making payments for. He can let you pay off the car, and legally FORCE YOU TO GIVE IT TO HIM, if he doesn't want to sign the clear Title over to you.

[lrprn]

Let's see if I have this right....

You want to file Ch 7 asap to stop already court-approved wage garnishments that could be put into place if you take the new employment that's been offered. You also have possession of a car that you don't own but are making the payments on. You don't want to lose the car so you are holding off filing until the car is paid off.....right?

First things first - if you are making $1000/mo, then at your current income level, there's no problem filing a Ch 7. The median income for Oklahoma for one person is $34,072/year. You are well under that.

Now about the car....unless your name is on the car's title, your name is on the car's loan, or you signed a binding legal agreement to make the payments for the actual owner of the car, then you have no legal connection to this car and it does not need to be included in your bankruptcy.

Please discuss your situation in detail with your new lawyer to make sure you understand all the possible financial outcomes of filing now vs. waiting until later. Given the very limited information you've given us here, you may have been holding off filing when it wasn't necessary. Keep us posted on what you find out, and best of luck!

[demismom]

Don't forget to take the pre bankruptcy counseling classes BEFORE you file. I've been researching our Trustee on Pacer and I'll bet more than HALF of the Pro Se filers got their cases dismissed because they didn't take the class!!!!!!! Don't forget!

[bezoar]

I PM'ed you with my former atty's name. (Hope he isn't the one that went on hiatus ;) ) He's good!

[IvoryAngel]

The car was sold to me on a bill of sale. However I think in this situation its rendered null and void because he doesn't have the title yet. My attorney said clearly it is illegal what he did but more than likely because I just pay 220 a month to Nissan Credit ( I pay them direct online) that they would not make "the friend" pay me back those monies. This is what I obviously dont want to happen.

Also, I would like to say I know he went out on a limb for me as letting me pay this vehicle off this way. I have no trust issues with him and he has none with me. I have followed trough as requested and so has he thus far. I understand there aren't people like this in the world today and if they are they are hard to come by. I was blessed to say the least. I had a run down piece of junk that barely got me to and from. It was a van with no ventilation and the air conditioner wasn't working. The temps would top 150 inside the van. When me and my son then 4 would have to go someplace by the time we got there we were both drained and pouring sweat. Me and this guy worked together and I said hey I need a car. Explained my situation and he and his wife spent the weekend deliberating and he came back that Monday and said we decided to let you have it. I signed over my van to him just for giving me the car. He in turn sold the van and applied the funds to the car note of the car he was giving me. So, you see I dont have any worries that when I make that final payment he will turn over the paperwork. He is as excited as I because I am almost done. I have been making payments for around 2 1/2 yrs or so. We communicate once a month when I call to say hey my payment is made. And I have the account info so I can check my balance etc via phone anytime I want to. I hope that helped clear up some of the justified worrying about if I will get what I paid for. As I stated I am blessed and was fortunate to come across someone as kind as he and his wife to allow me to do this.

Ok, with that being said my last attorney said the amount being small he would not be forced to pay me back the monies. But, I just dont want to chance it. I would much rather pay it off and appear in court with title in my name. I dont want to get him involved and by no means do I want him to take the fall if it goes wrong. I feel like I would be failing on my part of the bargain if this did happen to turn out that way. And technically the car being sold to me on a bill of sale and its still under lien with Nissan Credit is not legal in some aspects. "Depends on who you speak to here"

You can see my hesitation! Its difficult to decide either way you know. And I have to prove I am sure to the Trustee why I have 220.00 going to Nissan every month on my bank statement? You think they would over look it?

Okay, now I see what you mean. You've got a separate problem! All the talk in the other thread involved bankruptcy, but I'm going to explain now about your separate subject!

First, of all I'm telling you how things work in California. I assume this would be the same as the Oklahoma DMV. There are 2 spots on the Title of a vehicle: Lien-holder and Registered owner. The lien holder has financial legal ownership for the vehicle. So, when you finance through a bank for a new car they pay the dealership the full amount, and list themselves as Lien-holder on the Title and you as the Registered owner. When you pay the car off, they will sign themselves off and mail you this Title. You can then take this to the DMV and they will update their record and send you an updated Title with NO lien-holders which means the registered owner listed (you) fully owns the car. You can then sell the car if you want. Now, that's how it works.

When that father you mentioned bought the car it was financed through Nissan Credit. Nissan Credit is the Lien-holder, and the father is listed as the Registered owner. He can also list his daughter as another registered owner, but the debt is in HIS name. HE is responsible to pay Nissan Credit, because HE signed the loan papers, and got those loan terms.

Now. You are saying that you "took over" paying for the car. As far as I know this is not possible legally UNLESS Nissan Credit agreed to close his loan account and have him (and if necessary his daughter) sign their "release of interest" as registered owners on the TITLE. Then Nissan Credit would add YOU as registered owner on the Title, and open a loan for you, (probably with different repayment terms) for the balance they need paid. If this didn't happen you DON'T OWN THE CAR! You MUST be listed on the TITLE!!! Otherwise, you are paying for sombody else's loan for no reason. It could get paid off, and you get no ownership! YOU don't have that debt. So it can't be listed in your Bankruptcy anyway! I repeat: if Nissan Credit did not have you sign paperwork for a loan, you are NOT in debt to them!

Please explain what you did involving this car, because from what I understand you had better hope you can trust this guy who you are making payments for. He can let you pay off the car, and legally FORCE YOU TO GIVE IT TO HIM, if he doesn't want to sign the clear Title over to you.

[IvoryAngel]

Right, I don't want him to have to pay me back the monies I have paid into the car and I don't want to loose the car either. I think even after I get this new job I will be well under the means. I will only be making around 24000/year and that is a two person household. I do have a son.

We did a bill of sale. Which I used to get insurance and other things. But, with it being different story all the time some insurance companies wont except that as ownership.

You can see how this gives me the blues. I just want to pay my car off and obtain the title so I don't have to go through all these hoops. I stopped the filing procedures earlier during the year because of my car. I cannot afford to loose it. I am a single mother and it is my only form of transportation and I can only pay it off as quick as I can.

I was thinking if I pay my court fees and make arrangements for rest with attorney I could hold off going to court until maybe November or December that would put me making payments on my car of 350.00 which I could manage to have it paid off and in my name by December. But would that hold off the garnishments and would my Trustee question why I increased my car payment and delayed my final filling?

Let's see if I have this right....

You want to file Ch 7 asap to stop already court-approved wage garnishments that could be put into place if you take the new employment that's been offered. You also have possession of a car that you don't own but are making the payments on. You don't want to lose the car so you are holding off filing until the car is paid off.....right?

First things first - if you are making $1000/mo, then at your current income level, there's no problem filing a Ch 7. The median income for Oklahoma for one person is $34,072/year. You are well under that.

Now about the car....unless your name is on the car's title, your name is on the car's loan, or you signed a binding legal agreement to make the payments for the actual owner of the car, then you have no legal connection to this car and it does not need to be included in your bankruptcy.

Please discuss your situation in detail with your new lawyer to make sure you understand all the possible financial outcomes of filing now vs. waiting until later. Given the very limited information you've given us here, you may have been holding off filing when it wasn't necessary. Keep us posted on what you find out, and best of luck!

[IvoryAngel]

Thanks for the reminder. I think I will get all my paperwork together nice and neat and then take the class. Thanks!!

Don't forget to take the pre bankruptcy counseling classes BEFORE you file. I've been researching our Trustee on Pacer and I'll bet more than HALF of the Pro Se filers got their cases dismissed because they didn't take the class!!!!!!! Don't forget!

[IvoryAngel]

LOL isnt that sad. I emailed him and waited for a response for like weeks finally he contacted me and he said O' I am taking up a job offer with another company so I need to refer you to someone else. Never heard back from him about the referral. Talk about Shady! At least I didnt start to give this man my money right.

Thanks again for your lead. I will follow up this week on it and go from there.

I PM'ed you with my former atty's name. (Hope he isn't the one that went on hiatus ;) ) He's good!

[ProSefromCA]

IvoryAngel,

Let me tell you exactly what you should do. First, FILE my dear, file. When you file Chapter 7 you list the debts you have. As I said in my post above you DON'T have a legal debt for that car! You certainly don't owe Nissan Credit because you never SIGNED anything with them. As for this 'bill of sale' I don't think ANY court of law would rule that someone can sell something that they do not fully own!!! It's null and void! BUT that is not a problem either way as far as your bankruptcy goes. When you list your debts DON'T PUT ANYTHING about that car. There is no reason too whatsoever (in fact it could get the case dismissed for fraud). If it is NOT included in your filing it will NOT affect this guy or Nissan Credit. They don't need to know anything about it at all!!! Just keep paying them as you are and hope the guy is trustworthy. Since you are under your median state income you automatically qualify to file Chapter 7. The bankruptcy court DOES NOT CARE that you pay for that car! You can explain the situation to the trustee if you want, but it won't make any difference. You are AUTOMATICALLY ELIGIBLE for chpt 7 if you are under your median state income.


I calculate that you have invested about $7,000 into this car so far, so it's a bit late to change anything. The best you can do is pay off the remaining $1,800 and see what happens. If the guy turns nasty, you would have to sue him - but with that flimsy bill of sale I don't think you have any chance. But that's a separate issue! I know you got confused, but don't attach this to your bankruptcy proceedings!!! It has nothing to do with it! File NOW and get it over with!!