Attorney Went Hiatus

[IvoryAngel]

Thanks!!

Thanks for all the information and support. I got a great lead on an attorney and I will start working on getting in for my preappointment.

[ProSefromCA]

No problem!

One last thing. When you list your assets, again, don't list that car. Technically, it is not yours. In the eyes of the court you are RENTING that car from the guy. What I would do is pretend the car does not exist as far as all bankruptcy papers go. When you have your meeting with the Trustee, just volunteer to say that you have a weird situation where you are basically renting-to-own a car with another private party, and you just want to be open and honest about everything going on in your life. The Trustee will appreciate you being honest, and it will not affect your case.

Good luck!!!

[Spartan]

Why even volunteer anything? The last thing you want to do, is to volunteer anything that is not required of you.

You don't own the car. If asked, answer truthfully, ie you don't own a car. That is all there is to it. You simply DO NOT OWN a car. The car does not belong to you. No creditor nor trustee can touch the car.

The last thing you want to do, is to muddy the water by giving the impression that you have vested equity interest in an asset.

[familyof7]

DO NOT MENTION THE CAR!!! You will probally regret it if you do. If you get a nice trustee it would be okay but if your trustee is a butt you will regret mentioning it.

[IvoryAngel]

Okay, I can not mention the car. However how do I explain having vehicle insurance on that vehicle and payments to Nissan Credit?

If they dont care where the payments are going and why they say what they do you know what I mean then I am down with not bringing up the car.

[ProSefromCA]

Spartan, and familyof7 do have a point. I don't think you need to mention the car. Just pretend it doesn't exist. The only reason I said to volunteer the information is because the Chapter 7 book I'm reading recommends being completely honest about everything. The Trustee will look you hard in the eyes and ask if you have been honest about your paperwork. If they feel you are holding something back they will dig and it can complicate things. The decision is up to you. Consult your attorney, and ask our opinions here, but I think you can truthfully answer "Yes" that you have filled out your papers honestly. There is no legal record anywhere connecting you to that car except that bill of sale, which I don't think is even legally binding.

If you DO feel the need to tell the Trustee about the car, be completely honest and explain everything. Remember, you will be under oath. It looks like the car exemption for Oklahoma is $7,500 so you would probably be okay even with a weird Trustee that wanted to open up a legal can of worms about the car situation. So, whether the car situation comes up or not I think you will come out okay!!!

[lrprn]

IA, we have a knowledgeable group of members here, but we aren't bk lawyers. You need to discuss this situation at length with several bk lawyers in your area during scheduled free consultations.

This is a very unusual situation with your car and you don't want to take the word of strangers on an Internet forum over what an expert bk attorney from your area tells you is the right thing to do. We don't know the customs of your local bk court or your local trustees dealing with assets that are in legal limbo. Your local bk lawyers will, and that's very important information to know in this situation.

Keep us posted on what you find out, and best of luck sorting this out so you can file, but not until you know your car will be as protected as possible.

[IvoryAngel]

I got my paperwork together last night. Well most of it all the creditors from my credit report at least. I was shocked to see I owe 28,000.00 just from that. That is amazing. I did not realize I owed that much money. And still some to add because I have not listed all the things I owe that do not appear on the credit report. UGH!!

So I will call the attorney and set up an appointment maybe for Thursday morning since I already have appointments that day. Hopefully all goes well and I get good news from him~ and the pending new job.

And you are right I will check with him up front and see what he says. There are more options or ideas that I can present. Like the rent to own. I am hoping I get lucky and he allows me to pay the 300.00 make arrangements and then I will pay my car off during the time I am waiting to pay him off. That way legally the car is mine, I am not garnished, and realistically everyone is happy.

[ProSefromCA]

IvoryAngel,

That's great news that you're going to see the attorney, and get this going. I think you will come out of it okay! Whether the court determines you have financial interest in the car or not, it looks like you would be under the $7,500 exemption. Best of luck!

[ProSefromCA]

IvoryAngel,

I just thought of one more thing in your favor! I know that your main concern is that your bankruptcy doesn't affect that guy. The important thing to focus on, and make sure your attorney is on top of this, is that you are effectively RENTING that vehicle. You are driving it with the guy's permission, but he owns it. You are paying him (essentially). That's renting. Let's say you and the guy decide to tear up that bill of sale because you inherit a car from somewhere else. You give him the car back and walk away, having used it for years. There is no way a Trustee can go after HIS car. It's HIS! This situation is tricky, but that's the key I believe. Until he signs over that clear Title to you, you have done nothing more than effectively RENT it.

Good luck.

[lrprn]

...you are effectively RENTING that vehicle. You are driving it with the guy's permission, but he owns it.

ProSe, the problem is that the guy doesn't have title to the car so he really doesn't own it. That's why IA's attorney noted that what the guy did is illegal.

If IA mentions this vehicle to the trustee, he very well could do a title search on it and all hell is going to break loose. She may well lose the car if she has no right to be renting it in the first place. That's why I sent her to several lawyers to get opinions. She shouldn't rush to file until she gets those interpretations.

Everyone's financial and family situations are unique plus bankruptcy law is very complicated, especially so after the law was revised in 2005. Something that may be true in our state or our bk district is not necessarily true in another state or district. How one trustee interprets something may not be the same as another trustee's interpretation, even within the same district! That's why we recommend members see local lawyers for interpretations of gray areas of the law, especially in a unique situation like IA's car.

What seems very straightforward to us non-lawyers may not be at all straightforward in court. That's why it pays to be very careful about what we recommend other members do and why it pays huge dividends to consult with several experienced bk lawyers in your area before doing anything. If you rush to file and find out you made a mistake, it can't be undone. Best to be certain first that you are doing what is best in your situation given the local customs and the case law decisions in your district.

[ProSefromCA]

lrprn,

I have to agree with you on the point of consulting lawyers, but disagree with you on other points. IvoryAngel, definitely DO say consult as many good LOCAL lawyers as you can on this. Nobody is going to argue against that.

But I disagree with lrprn about waiting to file. IvoryAngel has garnishments already waiting for her to raise income, which may happen with the new job. If she waits to fully pay off that car loan, the only thing that happens is that Nissan Credit will mail THE GUY his clear title. If he doesn't give it to IvoryAngel, and she never requests it the car is NEVER hers, and WAS never hers. It's that simple. Even if she had to sue the guy for the car a court would probably not award her the car or money back because they will view it as RENTING (original sale is void) and she would admit to getting use from the vehicle for the time she paid the money.

If the Trustee does a title search on that VIN nothing involving IvoryAngel will show up, just some unrelated guy's name along with Nissan Credit. There is no hell breaking loose. The bill of sale should never have been written. It's null and void. Tear it up, and it's still null and void. If THAT GUY wants to GIVE IvoryAngel his car once he gets the Title to it, he can do that perfectly legally by signing his release of interest on the Title. The ONLY time IvoryAngel would own it is by accepting the Title and having the DMV put that car in her name. It's that simple.

I'm no lawyer, but I do have a certain amount of knowledge. DEFINITELY DO ask real local lawyers whose job it is to be experts on such matters.

[Spartan]

"...However how do I explain having vehicle insurance on that vehicle and payments to Nissan Credit? .."


When you lease a car, you would have those payment. The payment don't mean you own a car. The trustee doesn't care if you lease a car. However, you may need to list your friend as the Lessor, on your bk form.

The fact remains, you don't own a car. You are 'leasing to own' a car. I wouldn't volunteer the 'to own' part......

[NYCountry]

You cannot insure something you do not own. Are you carried as an insured nonfamily member on his policy? Insurance companies will also ask where the car is garaged. (I was an insurance agent for 15 years.)

[IvoryAngel]

Surprisingly....I have insurance on my car in my name. With you being an insurance agent....I see your point every time I have to do something as simple as getting tags its a task. Because some do recognize the bill of sale and some dont. Its give and take here with the laws. "EVERYONE" here has a different story. Recently I got my tags from my actual insurance company. And they through a fit about my car being insured. Kinda odd since they have carried my insurance on it from day one. They insured it with the bill of sale. You can call just about any insurance company here and they say just bring in your bill of sale. You go to get tags and its the title. Some dont ask for a thing. Its shady to say the least.

In all honest I am very grateful and thankful for my car, but had I known now what I knew then I would of done it differently. You can see all the hoopla here and there is even more reason for me to just pay it off. Thank goodness all these events are coming up at the end of my term. Had all these stipulations came up the first few months I got my car I would of lost my mind.

I just wish everyone gave the same information. But no-one does. Its crazy for it to be so sporadic like that.