trustee wants more papers

[ronaldk]

Again in the mail today came a packet from our attorney, inside was a letter from the trustee asking for more paperwork,for 8 different checks written on our checking account, some of checks will be easy to get from our bank and explain, some won't be. What do we do about the checks that might be made out to cash? How do we prove what we spent that money on? This is dated back to 2004/05, and yes I know I should have saved the reciepts, and I do have the ones that were written for work around the house, but not all of them, whenever we would refi we would give cash to our church, as a thank you for the blessing we recieved, I don't have reciepts for that, or for the money we gave a friend after she had a baby and her husband walked out on her.
Of course our attorney was gone by the time I called, I guess she is looking for assests, big ticket items, we have none, in the letter it was stated that they thought it was unusal that everytime we refied we spent money right away, well if you haven't been to the store for 4/5 months, or been able to buy shoes and such of course your going to spend right away. I don't know if it is even worth this anymore, I was healthy when this first started, and now I have high blood pressure, and just hanging on. I can't take too much more.
I'm tired of wondering, maybe we should just pull out, and, I don't know, so what I would like to know is..... will she want this money back? Will she dismiss? What? And if she does want this money back can we make payments? Were that will come from who knows? Thanks for any help, it's all just a little overwhelming right now, sorry for being whiney. I would never want the power these trustees have over anyone elses life, and I notice this letter was from a different trustee this time, does he work for or with her?
nancy

[CindyLou]

Honesty is the best policy. I'm sure they are looking for preferrential payments more than anything. If you dont mind me asking, what were the amounts on these 8 checks?

[ronaldk]

By preferrential payments do you mean large payments to one person? I don't mind telling the check amounts, $9, 440 (04) this was used to pay off check into cash places, we no longer have the papers but we do have the names and addresses of the stores, it's a lot but it paid the rent, $9, 214, $1, 110,
$6,770, $1, 120, $1,200,1,029 and $3, 800.
Like I said, I can provide the reciepts and all the work for the wood floors. carpeting, down payments on cars, it's the little things that I guess we'll just have to write out and explain and hope she understands. I am at the point that I will move out of my county, re-file and try again, were she can't "handle" the case.
I am not blameing her, I know full well we are responsible for our state of affairs here, but I also do not believe this was a random draw, I knew walking out of the 341 we were in trouble. I am anxious to hear what the attorney has to say on Monday, frankly I am thinking we might need a face to face with him, it's going to be a long week-end.
thanks
nancy

[CindyLou]

yes, preferential payments would be greater than 600 to any creditor, family, friend, or business associate. If the money was spent on repairs, normal expeneses, or expeneses relative to life, then it wont be an issue. Which are the amounts you don't have proof for?

[SinkingFast]

I'm guessing this "new" Trustee is most likely the US Trustee. Or an attny working in the US Trustee's office.

Moving to refile won't fix your situation. BK is Federal. They'll ask if you've filed before. You'll have to be honest. If you aren't, and they find out, you could have your case Dismissed With Prejudice. That would mean you could never Discharge any of the debts you listed in your BK Filing. It's best to just tough this out to the end.

If you wrote checks of any amount to your Church, the Secretary/Treasurer of the Church should have some sort of record of those. Just ask. They'll dig out their old ledgers and write you statements for your donations. You don't have to tell you need the info because you filed BK. You can say you need the receipts to have for your records.

You can ask your friend to write up a Statement about the money you gave to her. Let your friend explain what happened and how you helped her. Or you can write up something for her to sign. There again, you can say you need the documentation for your records. If your friend presses, you can say you're just gonna keep it with your filed taxes. Charitable contributions and all that.

As best you can from memory, jot down the rest that you don't have receipts for. Be as honest as you can. The Trustee is just looking for a reasonable explanation of where the money went.

[DeadManCrawling]

I haven't been through the process yet, but we have some similar issues and did ask our attorney about them.

He suggested many of the things SinkingFast did. The US Trustee is different than the BK trustee, and the US Trustee is looking for reasonableness-which does not necessarily MEAN necesssary or even required.

He/she simply wants proof (or fairly convincing evidence) that you didn't suck this money out, turn it to cash and currently have it sitting between the mattresses in an envelope. Or handed it of to mom, dad, sister, friend to "hold" for you until you got through BK.

As added weight, you may want to have the statements you CAN get from some of these friends notarized at the time they sign. I know it all sounds like a hassle, but I doubt it's as serious as you have magnified it in your mind.

I am not casting any judgement at all here, but some members of the board have gambled away more money than you withdrew, and they did so within 6 months of filing. Hopefully CatchMeIfYouCan will chime in and tell a bit of his story, and how he explained it. If not, run searches on here and see how/when they explained such things.

-DMC

[ronaldk]

I am so grateful for your replies, it's 4 a.m. here and I have been thinking on this, we payed cash to our church as we didn't want them to know it was us that gave the amount, as they would have made a big deal over it, we just wanted to thank God for what He did for us. Yes, I can get the girl to write up a note stateing we gave her the money, I had never thought of that.
I can list the companys names and addresses, of the check into cash type places, but I no longer have paper work, as after 4 years, I, never thought we would need them, I have receipts for the floors, carpeting, but some of the money was spent on normal things, costco, clothes, Christmas, groceries, will this be enough for them? It's hard to say untill we go to the bank Monday and get the copies of the checks.
As far as moving, I was I think at that time looking for a way out of Cook County, as she is a trustee of Cook, but of course we wouldn't as I wouldn't allow anyone to run me away from my family. And maybe I am making more out of this then there really is, it is just such a scary thing to have happen, it has been one hurdle after another to jump. And I just want it over and done with, and I never thought they were looking for hidden cash I thought more big ticket items , so thanks again, all of you that have replied are helping me hold it together, anymore thoughts?
Nancy

[DeadManCrawling]

In the case of the church donation, I would ask the attorney about simply writing up your own affidavit stating that it was a church donation made anonymously.

These are from such a long time ago I can't imagine it will be a big issue.

Do you have any other proof of previous or recent donations to your church, especially large ones? That could weigh in your favor.

I can't believe this will even be an issue, though, regardless. People donate to churches all the time. Maybe I will start one myself, now that I think about it.

For the small items, I would think simply saying "Spent the remainder on groceries, household, clothing, etc." Would be more than sufficient.

From 2004? Heck I can't remember what was on TV last night, let alone find something like receipts that old.

-DMC

[ronaldk]

I'm with you DMC, I'm just trying to remember what i made for dinner yesterday, let alone what i did with money in 2004, when we weren't having any money problems. But no usually we don't make large donations to our church, we just usually give whatever we are able to, like I said that was a special occasion. I guess the only thing we can do is the best we can, give the reciepts we have, explain what we can, and hope they understand, I realize that these trustee's are just doing there job, but I can't believe they might think people really just file for the fun of it, this isn't fun, if we had the money, of course we would pay the bills, like everyone here we worked very hard for our home, our credit scores and now here we are starting over. Any ideas just were this all could end, and I know I have read here that the goal is to get the discharge, and that is what I want, is it possible that this could stop it, or could they still discharge and not close the case? how much more could they ask or? Still full of questions here. thanks for allowing me to take up so much time, any all info helps more then you know.
nancy

[Spartan]

I concur to the notarized statement part. A sworn statement carries a lot more weight than your own statement.

[ilovemycaitybug]

I am still pretty ignorant, I guess you can say, about this whole process and I think that is what has kept me sane (well... ) LOL... Anyway, what prompts a Trustee to dig for bank info from 2-3 years ago? I'm a little concerned because I am like you... I don't have a CLUE what money was spent on from even day to day! I just thought the 4-6 months of bank statements would suffice....

[CindyLou]

question: are these 8 consectutive check numbers? Or are they spread out?

[ronaldk]

I am not sure what would cause this trustee to dig so far back into our records, at first our attorney said we were being audited, then he has said he doesn't know what this trustee is thinking, it could be that it is because we did a re-fi twice in the same year and got some money back each time, for awhile we lived off the check into cash type places, at an unbeliveable amount that had to be paid back, over 9K at one time, do I have the papers for these, of course not, at the end of the year I shred everything that was paid off, I have tryed to get records from them, but they even said they don't keep records that far back. If I would have known then what I know now I wouldn't have been so afraid of them, but of course they have those wage assignment, and the last thing we wanted was for the job to know about these. These checks are drawn out over a period of time, and they are questioning why after every re-fi we spent the money right away, yes, sometimes the day the re-fi checks cleared we did draw out money, the check places only allowed you to pay the accounts off in cash and then returned your check. And everyday they hold them, they cost you more, so in the long run we were trying to save some money. I have some reciepts I found yesterday, the down payment for the car, the laminate floors, and untill tomorrow comes and I get the checks from the bank, I honestly can't remember what we did with the money. I know I went to costco's for stock up, and I'm sure we wasted some money by having coffee out or buying some little silly thing, but we never bought big things with the money, we always caught up with bills we did not have the re-fi company write checks for, and we certainly don't have any money hidden anyplace as they seem to think. I have a feeling they are going to want some of this money paid back, well, stand in line, I just wish I knew what to write down on paper to make then understand. Any thoughts on that subject would be much apprecaited, I was thinking maybe calling the check places and asking what the payback amount would be on the initial amont we first took out, like I said I just don't know how too explain this on paper.

[brokeinmichigan]

For awhile we lived off the check into cash type places, at an unbeliveable amount that had to be paid back, over 9K at one time, do I have the papers for these, of course not, at the end of the year I shred everything that was paid off, I have tryed to get records from them, but they even said they don't keep records that far back. If I would have known then what I know now I wouldn't have been so afraid of them, but of course they have those wage assignment, and the last thing we wanted was for the job to know about these. These checks are drawn out over a period of time, and they are questioning why after every re-fi we spent the money right away, yes, sometimes the day the re-fi checks cleared we did draw out money, the check places only allowed you to pay the accounts off in cash and then returned your check. And everyday they hold them, they cost you more, so in the long run we were trying to save some money. I have some reciepts I found yesterday, the down payment for the car, the laminate floors, and untill tomorrow comes and I get the checks from the bank, I honestly can't remember what we did with the money. I know I went to costco's for stock up, and I'm sure we wasted some money by having coffee out or buying some little silly thing, but we never bought big things with the money, we always caught up with bills.

I'd just write what you wrote above down...it's believable and more importantly, honest. What more can they ask for? Give them all of your receipts that you can find, get some of the people that you helped out to confirm that, etc....just tell 'em the truth.

Our 341 isn't for another month, so I'm a newbie at this, and sure hope we don't have the same problems that you're having, as we refi-d 2 years ago, and I couldn't begin to tell you what we did with that $13K. But the advice and knowledge on this board has already helped us a great deal, and I'm sure it will serve you well, too. Good luck and keep us posted.

Hoping for brighter skies ahead...

[SinkingFast]

I did happen to think maybe you should dig out your Refi paperwork too.

The Refi paperwork, more specifically the HUD1 Statement, will show the distribution of funds. So much paid to your Lender, any CC's or accts paid direct by the Lender out of the Refi funds, and then the cash disbursement to you. The HUD1 Statement will explain to the Court where those larger amounts of cash came from to begin with.

Then, along with whatever receipts and statements you get to support your story, you can fill in the gaps with the information you've told us. Honestly. Like you did here.

Maybe call up the Pay Day Loan places and see if they have records of your business with them. They might even print out statements for you too.

Just some thoughts for you.