Is an income tax return considered income ?

[SamanthaJones]

Makes sense to me, BassBoy.

But still it'd be good to see some verification. If a tax refund is not income, I can start working sooner.

[no_it_all]

But still it'd be good to see some verification. If a tax refund is not income, I can start working sooner.

Verification? Give me a break! It is common sense!! If you make 30K a year and get a 5K refund how much did you make??? If you can't figure that out PLEASE do not go Pro Se!!! Apparently you have never even filled out a BK form. I suggest you download a couple and start punching in the numbers. They ask you your GROSS INCOME and then ask you what you PAID IN TAXES...Forget about what your employer took out..they want to know your TAX LIABILITY...not how many exemptions you claimed on your W-4 or your refund. As someone so eloquently pointed out, any refund is simply money you overpaid . Sheesh!!! Go to your attorney if you want verification!

[quietsound]

I beg to differ. I did a chapter 13, mind you it's not a chapter 7 but absolutely our lawyer counted a tax refund AS INCOME as well as the bonus we get at the end of the year.

[SamanthaJones]

No, no it all.

You get a spanking. The means test very clearly asks for 'all other income', and does not exlude tax refunds, etc. I have yet to see a clear answer to this, other than the one that follows your last response. I am not refrring to income as defined by the IRS.

[SamanthaJones]

And another thing, no it all?

If I TRUSTED lawyers, and have not already been SCREWED by THREE of them, I WOULD ask for professional verification. Time is on my side, and I will figure this out without spending $2000. I only have a few more questions...and MONTHS to find the answers~

[SamanthaJones]

Very calmy (and quietly!) said, Quietsound.

Kudos.

[keepmine]

A tax refund is not income. It's an overpayment due to withholding. The means test asks for gross income.
Comparing a Chapter 13 to a 7 is not applicable.
In a 13, all disposable income goes to repay creditors. Trustees have long considered refunds and unexpected bonuses as DI for Chapter 13 purposes.

[no_it_all]

Jack makes 30 grand a year. Jill makes 30 grand a year. Jack gets a 2K refund and Jill gets NO refund. THEIR INCOME IS THE SAME, THEIR TAX LIABILITY IS NOT!!!!..........see, this is why America is at the bottom of the list of all industrial countries when it comes to math skills....so sad!

[no_it_all]

I beg to differ. I did a chapter 13, mind you it's not a chapter 7 but absolutely our lawyer counted a tax refund AS INCOME as well as the bonus we get at the end of the year.

No he didn't..he added the tax refund to your NET INCOME (because you claimed too many exemptions on your W-4 form) and added you bonus to your GROSS INCOME...sheesh!! This is getting scary!!

[no_it_all]

My school contract is for $56,310 per year..I just did my taxes online and will get a six-thousand dollar refund for OVERPAYMENT of income taxes. So I guess I should add that six grand to my $56,310 so ah, I guess I <actually> had an income of $62,310 per year! MY GAWD, and people wonder why they can't manage money and end up BK !!!

[no_it_all]

The means test very clearly asks for 'all other income', and does not exlude tax refunds, etc. I have yet to see a clear answer to this, other than the one that follows your last response.

How about you actually take a peek at the Means Test Calculation worksheet and see in particular on line 3 where you insert your GROSS INCOME and then hop over to line 10 and actually <think> for a second if you should add in your TAX REFUND so that your income is now HIGHER than your gross salary. In other words, YOU ARE NOW MAKING MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR!!. Pretty neat trick huh? How about the two hundred bucks you lent your friend at work..do you think you should add THAT to your income when he pays you back?

I mean, you want to add the thousands of dollars you lent Uncle Sam for ten months as <other income> right?

[no_it_all]

I hope this doesn't take <months> for you to figure out ! YIKES!!

[no_it_all]

OK, I am done ranting...sorry...maybe i am a <little> cranky

[no_it_all]

An EXCELLENT idea...unlike most of the knuckleheads here, I actually have done a Pro Se Chapter 7 including a mortgage of 278K, about 12K in Federal Income taxes, 115K in CC dept and a partridge in a pear tree...Seriously, read my posts you will learn something...Now, about that spanking you promised!

[keepmine]

I just don't see how it can be explained any simpler.
The forms ask for gross income. Your refund is part of that gross income.
You don't or won't understand what we are telling you and you won't ask a lawyer. I don't see how'll you'll resolve the impasse.