Chase objects to Dischargeability

[debitdork]

Geesh now I am really confused.
There seems to be a lot of conflicting advice regarding these issues - especially the "consult a lawyer" issue. That seems to be the first piece of advice given by those who have been there and seems to be good, but if the date I visit an attorney is going to be held against me by creditors in regard to my last card use/payments made - I don't know if I want to see one until the day before I can afford one to hire. This is also very tricky if I take into consideration that a lot of the experienced filers here have said that patience is the best approach as well.

Should one stop using their CCs, be patient _then_ consult with a lawyer?
or
Should one consult with a lawyer - then do what he says? That had been my plan, but now I am terrified. Do consultations with lawyers you do not retain count?!

THIS also scares me -
(Quoting HHM )

It's the first time you consult with a lawyer. Also, some creditor attorneys are getting smart and asking people at their 341 meetings or at 2004 exams what websites they have visited, (i.e. like this one), etc to help establish the fact that the debtor is intentionally evading the presumption period.

Woah. I have been looking into BK info for a few months now because I did not know _anything_ about BK other than what had happened to me when playing Monopoly.

Also, does the balance transfer amount matter at all? What if you were merely using one BT check to pay minimum on one card to pay another? I can see how they might see this as fraud, but in my case I have been doing it just in the hope of not having to BK and leave everyone unpaid. Poor financial decision - I know- but if I had sound financial reasoning I would not be here to begin with, right? I did not see this as potantial fraud becasue I had NOT been looking into the information. (And judging from what HHM said they didn't want me to be looking into it)

I guess my bottom line is - what order is best to do? Who / what first?
Am I already too late by being here to begin with?

[keepmine]

IMO, the instant that bk is a viable course of action in your mind, you should cease all credit card use.
Once you have seen a lawyer and decide to file, the lawyer will very likely advise you to layoff the cards.
I think you're way overthinking this thing. It's pretty simple-don't give your creditor a reason to challenge your filing.The way you do this is curb your credit card use in the months leading up to filing. Don't do bt's or use the cards if it's avoidable. Wait 6 months + from last use and file.
Very few bk's have any objections filed. HHM is just pointing out a potential line of questioning should a creditor file for an adverserial hearing.

[SinkingFast]

It was often posted on the Forum here when I first joined that BK attnys maintain logs of Consultations. Whether that's true or urban legend,......... I don't know.

From a business standpoint, I could see where an attny would maintain a record of their hours and such. Worked on this client's case from 8-9 am. Went to Courthouse for 341 Meetings for X, Y, Z clients, 9 am to Noon. Lunch, Noon to 1 pm. Consulted with Mr. and Mrs Smith from 1-2 pm. etc, etc, etc.

The older filers here when I first joined also said,........... You, as a filer, committed to filing BK the minute you paid an attny any money. A retainer started the BK clock.

For us,........... We finally sat down with all the CC bills, paychecks, monthly bills, and looked at where we were. I kinda sorta researched Credit Counseling and BK online. I learned we'd have to do Credit Counseling as part of BK filing. We decided to get a review of our finances by a DOJ approved Credit Counselor to see where we were. Could we turn things around??!!

The Credit Counselor figured a DMP. Payments were the same as our minimums, which we couldn't pay. The Counselor also gave us 3 recommendations.

Talk to our Mortgage Lender. See if we could work out something with them.

Talk to our Auto Loan Lender and work out some sort of arrangement with them.

Seek Legal Counsel.

We weren't paying our house payments. We'd moved so being evicted in a Foreclosure wasn't a concern anyway. We did contact our Mortgage Lender but they wouldn't budge.

Our car payment was relatively small. $250/mo and we were current. So we didn't mess with that.

We didn't have the money to keep paying the CC minimums, so we quit using our CC's and quit making payments.

We started scheduling Consult appointments with attnys.

Other people have posted here that they stayed current on their CC payments right up to filing day. Some people paid all or part for a few months before they quit paying. Waited a few more months and then filed. Some people quit paying their CC's and waited years before filing.

There is really no "One Size Fits All" answer to give you. Pretty much,......... You've got to do what you can and need to do.

[aa06a47]

I had 3 chase cards, approximatly 30K in debt to them when I filed, and approximatly 15k of it was cash advances for gambling somehwere in the 100+day filing period. They didn't file any objections to the discharge.

I have read that the general rule is that most anybody using credit cards is under some financial distress when making the actual purchase, but that does not prove intent to not pay back. The cc companies must prove you never intended to pay back. If you make charges prior to losing a job, then you should be OK and little they can do to prove you had no intention. I really don't believe many credit cards "win" objections to dischargability if the debtor is half way educated on how to answer the questions prior to going to court. That is probably why as one poster stated, they are willing to accept a much lower settlement amount.

As some have said, take the objection serious, but from what I have read this should not be an issue, and it sounds as if your attorney feels that way also. I remember asking my attorney about this due to my large number of cash advances, and she told me that there would be little chance of them winning if they pursued it.

[CindyLou]

If you have seen a lawyer "too early" and are worried, then just don't use that lawyer to file. See a new attorney and keep you lips sealed about the first consult unless you abslutely have to answer the question.

[GawVa]

Aversary proceeding dismissed

Great news , It took awhile but after 6 weeks and going to the first hearing which lasted all but 3 minutes and then waiting another month. One of the Chase lawyers called our lawyer and ask us show them where we spent the cash advance.
No problem we printed out bank records of all checks and statements showing how we had spent every dime of their advance plus some of our own money to refinance a bunch of outstanding credit card dept onto one of their cards. The attorney for Chase said no problem and dropped the Adversary proceedings, and sure enough it showed up on Pacer today

Closed , Dismissed , Gone
What a blessing , many on this board had advise and I thank you.

[CATCHMEIFYOUCAN]

I've noticed as we get further into the Bk process and the new laws more and more creditors seem to be objecting to discharge lately. Maybe I'm just seeing things. These objections lately are from the same creditors I filed on, and all I've ever used my credit cards were for gambling/cash advances, however I never fell behind a payment until the very day I filed. Maybe thats what held them back from my case as I showed no abuse (not really) by keeping up the monthly minimums ???

Best of Luck to Everyone who has to deal with Objections, CMIYC

[CindyLou]

other than to get zero interest rate? Am I missing something? I transfer my stuff every chance I get and always have. I think that seems like not fraudulent, but prudent? As far as most people being able to survive over 4 months with a job loss- sorry, Honey...the statistics show that 80% of Americans do not have even a 30 day supply of emergency funding to stay afloat.

Ok, lets say you have a 5000 balance with capital one. So you write out a balance transfer check from Chase and pay off Cap. One. Then 60 days later you file BK. Well, Cap. One got paid and Chase got screwed. The way they look at it is that if you knew you were going to file then Cap. One should be out the $5000, not chase. Hope this helps explain it. Its the same thing as a cash advance.

[DivorceRuinedMe]

I've noticed as we get further into the Bk process and the new laws more and more creditors seem to be objecting to discharge lately. Maybe I'm just seeing things. These objections lately are from the same creditors I filed on, and all I've ever used my credit cards were for gambling/cash advances, however I never fell behind a payment until the very day I filed. Maybe thats what held them back from my case as I showed no abuse (not really) by keeping up the monthly minimums ???

Best of Luck to Everyone who has to deal with Objections, CMIYC

I'm just curious CMIYC, if you could still afford to pay your minimums, then how did you pass the means test? Wouldn't you have had tons of disposable income this way? I remember you saying something about quitting one of your jobs. Is this how you got around that - by quitting one of your jobs and therefore leaving you with no money left to pay the minimums?

I ask b/c I was doing Ebay on the side, I had a store and everything and I was doing okay with it - I wasn't making tons of money, but just enough to pay my minimums on my ccs. Then, I separated from my ex making me a single mom to two babies. It became too much for me to handle and I couldn't do Ebay anymore thus cutting off all my income to pay my minimums. I've since stopped doing Ebay as of last month and I'm now stopping paying my CCs b/c I just don't have anything left to pay them at the end of the month without Ebay. Do you think I have a valid argument (like yours) that I just couldn't handle the two jobs anymore and that's why I just stopped paying the ccs. At one time I DID have the disposable income but now I don't.

[Ortgeist]

I had the notion that we would "squeeze by" any way we could because I am going to pay my debt off. I told myself we could hang in there until the next tax return of 2008 and then pay a chunk of a card off and that would get us ahead. I've had to put my phone bill and my job education on my credit card, otherwise my phone would be turned off and I would not be a registered, licensed professional- which I have to have in order to work. So, my question is.....what about those people who are denying that they can't file bankruptcy and are trying to hang in there- even though it won't work? I used my AMEX and Chase visa to cover these charges. I know I can't pay them the full balance, but I also knew that I would pay the minimum on them and thereby covering the expense of my phone bill & education within the next month. I've recently surrendered the fact that I will probably have to file. Went through 2 credit counseling co's who both said that we are $1400 in the hole each month when looking at our annual expense to income. And what's worse is that we have medical bills in collections and more are coming. My son is bipolar and has been to the ER, outpatient psych, several med changes, and I've had to take time off without pay. It's getting so that I will have paid most of my bills each month, but I can't afford groceries. I've been saying I will pay the bills on time if I have to pimp myself out on the corner to do so. I just can't do it anymore, though. I'm tired of the stress, and on top of it, we have a very ill little boy who is exhausting me 24 hours a day. I'm usually a happy person, but I feel beat and defeated. I had good intensions when I applied for the "no payments til 2007" deals. But when my son got sick and expenses increased- I wasn't able to make payments and then - wham, the interest accrued.
I know I can't keep this up much longer. Should I wait 5 months since I used my Amex last month? Or would the attourney & creditors see that this was the only option I had to get the necessities that I need? And would it be wise to stop paying these creditors now and then buy the groceries, pay the utilities, etc or should I keep paying for 5 months and then file Bk?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

[SamanthaJones]

How many people simply stop paying bills, and don't file BK?

I bet at least two for every filer. Some people don't know about BK. Some can't afford the fees. Some have no reason to file since they have nothing to lose, anyway. Some are too proud to acknowledge a problem. The simple number of filings might only be a shaded view of what the reality of America is like. Everybody I know, regardless of profession or income, is maxed out in debt and getting deeper, and would it really be credible to say that everyone is irresposible with money? Not in my opinion. The fact is: You get a raise. (If you are lucky). Then postage goes up. Then electricity. Now gas is $3. Property tax is doubling. Not only is your raise long gone, you are now faced with less disposable income than ever before you got that raise. On, and on. Who can possibly keep pace with the assault coming form every direction? It has to end somewhere.

[cschon911]

Chase

Chase objected when we filed bankruptcy also. Our chase credit card
had a balance of 2,000. ALL of it was emergency survival. Gas for Cars, Food, perscriptions. My husband got laid off suddenly with no warning. We had no choice but to charge basic necessities. I worked, but we were in big trouble. They fought us tooth and nail. We couldn't afford $4,000, which is what we were told could amount to lawyers fees, if we fought it out with chase. We ended up having to pay back half of the $2,000. My point is this.
Chase does NOT care what you charged. They are obviously losing alot of money these days because of bankruptcies. I swear, In a million years,
I will never, ever deal with Chase for anyTHING again. They were relentless.

[manglicmot]

I got a Chase Visa in December of 2004 with a low initial APR when I did a balance transfer to it. I don't remember how much I transfered to it, but it has a $1680 balance right now. It has never been used other than the original balance transfer in 2004. I don't see where they will have a case against me if they object, but now I'm a little worried.

[CATCHMEIFYOUCAN]

DivorceRuinedMe

[B]I'm just curious CMIYC, if you could still afford to pay your minimums GAMBLING WINS KEPT ME ABOVE THE WATER, then how did you pass the means test? Wouldn't you have had tons of disposable income this way? I DONT KNOW HOW I "PASSED THE MEANS TEST," IT PROVED I HAD NEGATIVE DISPOSABLE INCOME (CONGRESS DIDN'T TEST THE WATERS THEY JUST DOVE IN WITH IT!) SCHEDULES "I and J," SHOWED MY REAL BUDGET .. I remember you saying something about quitting one of your jobs. Is this how you got around that - by quitting one of your jobs and therefore leaving you with no money left to pay the minimums? PRETTY MUCH, WHEN I HAD TWO FULL TIME JOBS IT AUTOMATICALLY THREW ME WAY OVER THE MEDIAN FOR A SINGLE PERSON, WHEN I QUIT ONE OF MY JOBS IT WAS OBVIOUS IT PUT ME A COUPLE THOUSAND BELOW THE MEDIAN.

I ask b/c I was doing Ebay on the side, I had a store and everything and I was doing okay with it - I wasn't making tons of money, but just enough to pay my minimums on my ccs. Then, I separated from my ex making me a single mom to two babies. It became too much for me to handle and I couldn't do Ebay anymore thus cutting off all my income to pay my minimums. I've since stopped doing Ebay as of last month and I'm now stopping paying my CCs b/c I just don't have anything left to pay them at the end of the month without Ebay. Do you think I have a valid argument (like yours) that I just couldn't handle the two jobs anymore and that's why I just stopped paying the ccs. At one time I DID have the disposable income but now I don't. AS THE JUDGE PUT IT "THE LAW DOESN'T REQUIRE YOU TO WORK 80 HOURS A WEEK, IF YOU CHOOSE TO WORK LIKE THAT IS UP TO YOU, YOU COULD CERTAINLY QUIT ONE OF YOUR JOBS! BUT IF YOU DON'T THAN EXPECT TO PAY. YOU HAVE 15 DAYS TO RESUBMIT ANOTHER PLAN. SO OF COURSE I DID WHAT MADE SENSE!" EBAY IS NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE OF INCOME (YOUR STORE) BECAUSE YOUR INCOME FLUCTUATES UNLIKE A REGULAR HOURLY PAYING JOB, AS LONG AS YOU WORK THE SAME HOURS YOUR INCOME IS GUARANTEED. SO I DON'T KNOW A GOOD ANSWER TO THIS.
THERE ARE MANY REASONS WHY ONE CAN NO LONGER KEEP UP WITH THEIR DEBTS. I FILED BECAUSE I KNOW THAT I WAS NEVER GOING TO GET AHEAD WITH THE CREDITORS. THE TRUSTEE NEVER MADE AN ISSUE ABOUT WHY I STOPPED PAYING HE IS JUST INTERESTED IN HOW MUCH I COULD PAY BACK THROUGH THE CHAPTER.

HOPE I HELPED SOMEWHAT, CATCHMEIFYOUCAN

[CATCHMEIFYOUCAN]

I'll tell ya something folks and I didn't know it than but now I know it and I'm glad I did it THAT way:

I had a Chase credit card myself ($2500 possibly $5000 limit). Like I mentioned all I ever used my cc's were for gambling. My "cash advances," were of a "different form." There's this store manager that would allow me to buy lottery tickets using my credit card(s) and even gave me "cash advances," with it. He owns a supermarket, so when the receipt printed out, FOR EXAMPLE: it would show $500 groceries ! ! ! I didn't realize how beneficial this was going to be until I filed BK and called Chase and asked them "When was my last cash advance???" They said "You've never had one!"
Hmmm ... I better not say anymore than I have!

Best Wishes ! Catch Me If You Can !