Chase objects to Dischargeability

[keepmine]

They don't get the petition, only a filing notice. Also- what is the big deal with a balance transfer? That would seem to me a wsie move for anyone it is offered to- I do it myself every time I can, so why does that indicate finacial distress? If a person WAS contemplating filing bankrupcty- then why would they even bother with a balance transfer?

They have access to Pacer. They can see every document filed.

[keepmine]

Without more info, I think this is probably a 60/40 case, we still don't know the amounts involved. But the main problem is timing, this person did a balance transfer and within 4 months, filed BK. Even with a job loss, most people can usually get by for more than 4 months without having to declare BK. If not, that means that even without the job loss, this couple was in over their head in debt and Chase still has a good argument that they could not have reasonably expected to pay back this debt.

Just to flesh out HHM's thoughts a bit: My attorney explained it like this. The argument a creditor will make on activity over 90 days is, the date you chose to file is spurious. You knew that the burden of proof shifted to the creditor after 90 days and you intentionally waited to file. They'll try and support that claim by asking when you first spoke with an attorney about bk and draw an inference that the lawyer told you to wait,etc.
Now then, there comes a point where that argument just won't work and that appears to be at the 6 month mark. My lawyer {who has been doing bl's since the 80"s} said that he had never lost a challenge where there had been at least 6 months between filing and cc use. He also said he'd never had a challenge when there had been at least a year beteen filing an cc activity. Patience is your best friend sometimes.
Myself, I had 7 months between filing and any cc activity and it had been 11 months since my last BT. I had no creditor objections and I had 4 Chase accounts.

[Vikingfan]

Is Chase the only one who does this?

Or will any of the cc companies do this? Do they go by the last 6 billing statements or by 6 months from the exact date of bal transfer?

Im probably in the same boat as the original poster but with a different cc.I was going to file after 4 1/2 mo from bal transfer, I guess i need to hang on now another 2 months.

[SamanthaJones]

Why else would anyone transfer a balance,

other than to get zero interest rate? Am I missing something? I transfer my stuff every chance I get and always have. I think that seems like not fraudulent, but prudent? As far as most people being able to survive over 4 months with a job loss- sorry, Honey...the statistics show that 80% of Americans do not have even a 30 day supply of emergency funding to stay afloat.

[AMISLANDER]

I think Chase has a whole new department devoted to getting money out of bankruptcies. We had to deal with them with our Circuit City card a few months ago.
I will stay far far away from them for the rest of my life.

This Chase thing is weird...as you know my discharge was last Feb....just paid off trustee to keep my SUV and yesterday there was something on pacer filed by my trustee to Chase...an objection to them...with feb. 28th as cut off...it's like what the heck is Chase coming after me for?

I hadn't used the card since 2001!!!! THey must have gotten flooded with a lot of bks is all I can imagine?

[Vikingfan]

Just to flesh out HHM's thoughts a bit: My attorney explained it like this. The argument a creditor will make on activity over 90 days is, the date you chose to file is spurious. You knew that the burden of proof shifted to the creditor after 90 days and you intentionally waited to file. They'll try and support that claim by asking when you first spoke with an attorney about bk and draw an inference that the lawyer told you to wait,etc.
Now then, there comes a point where that argument just won't work and that appears to be at the 6 month mark. My lawyer {who has been doing bl's since the 80"s} said that he had never lost a challenge where there had been at least 6 months between filing and cc use. He also said he'd never had a challenge when there had been at least a year beteen filing an cc activity. Patience is your best friend sometimes.
Myself, I had 7 months between filing and any cc activity and it had been 11 months since my last BT. I had no creditor objections and I had 4 Chase accounts.

Keepmine, you said the CC co's will probably reference the 1st time someone spoke to an lawyer etc, do you think they would try to use that or the 1st time you actually paid them a fee or retainer?

Also JollyGG said his lawyer thought that he'd have no problem with his bal transfer because his was for 0% interest? Could someone tell me why the 0% interest helps his case, very curious.

[keepmine]

other than to get zero interest rate? Am I missing something? I transfer my stuff every chance I get and always have. I think that seems like not fraudulent, but prudent? As far as most people being able to survive over 4 months with a job loss- sorry, Honey...the statistics show that 80% of Americans do not have even a 30 day supply of emergency funding to stay afloat.

It's called, "robbing Peter to pay Paul". Many of us used cc's and cash advances and BT's to stay afloat and buy some time and the interest rate was not a consideration.
If you're on the cusp of bk, you better take a long look at any sort of cc activity within the last 6 months. You can argue this stuff here until you're blue in the face and we won't charge you a penny. You argue that in front of an adverserial hearing and the lawyers meter{s} start running.
There is theory and then, there is cold hard reality.

[HHM]

other than to get zero interest rate? Am I missing something? I transfer my stuff every chance I get and always have. I think that seems like not fraudulent, but prudent? As far as most people being able to survive over 4 months with a job loss- sorry, Honey...the statistics show that 80% of Americans do not have even a 30 day supply of emergency funding to stay afloat.

No one is saying Balance Transfers are "wrong", but doing balance transfers within 6 months of filing BK, will probably cause problems for the BK (namely, the creditor left holding the bag will object). On a side note, frequent balance transfers are not good for your credit rating either.

My point about getting by for 4 months is that most people don't go from financial balance to Bankruptcy in four months. It generally takes people much longer to get to BK. However, what does happen is that the person will "already" be in financial distress...and then an event happens that pushes them over the edge. That seems to be what happened here. Also, in my experience, most peoples first instinct upon losing a job is NOT to file BK, they tend to make it work and can generally go for quite a few months, even if that means living off of credit cards.

All I am saying is, that if you start loading up all these circumstances in a court room, the debtor doesn't come out looking so good. And as keepmine has eloquently pointed out, the original poster did a BT only 35 days before the presumption period, that tends to look specious.

[keepmine]

Keepmine, you said the CC co's will probably reference the 1st time someone spoke to an lawyer etc, do you think they would try to use that or the 1st time you actually paid them a fee or retainer?

Also JollyGG said his lawyer thought that he'd have no problem with his bal transfer because his was for 0% interest? Could someone tell me why the 0% interest helps his case, very curious.

If the question is, "when did you first consult an attorney regarding bk"_the answer is obvious-your intial consultation.
A BT for a 0% interest rate to replace a balance on a card that charged interest can sure be argued as a prudent financial move. The motive was to pay less interest some more money could be used to pay down the princile of the debt.

[HHM]

Keepmine, you said the CC co's will probably reference the 1st time someone spoke to an lawyer etc, do you think they would try to use that or the 1st time you actually paid them a fee or retainer?

Also JollyGG said his lawyer thought that he'd have no problem with his bal transfer because his was for 0% interest? Could someone tell me why the 0% interest helps his case, very curious.

It's the first time you consult with a lawyer. Also, some creditor attorneys are getting smart and asking people at their 341 meetings or at 2004 exams what websites they have visited, (i.e. like this one), etc to help establish the fact that the debtor is intentionally evading the presumption period.

[JollyGG]

Keepmine, you said the CC co's will probably reference the 1st time someone spoke to an lawyer etc, do you think they would try to use that or the 1st time you actually paid them a fee or retainer?

Also JollyGG said his lawyer thought that he'd have no problem with his bal transfer because his was for 0% interest? Could someone tell me why the 0% interest helps his case, very curious.

As I mentioned each individual has unique circumstances, a different district (different judges and trustees), and different needs.
In our case the 0% balance transfer was not a big deal as it was only $2500 and we had made 2-3 payments to that card since.
Yes they sent a letter to my laywer but they never actually objected.
I'm assuming my lawyer was familiar with how this issue has been handled in the past in my district. I also knew that our lawyer was one who was willing to fight for his clients. That's why I chose him.
That does not mean the issue would be the same with a different lender, differnt lawyer, different district, different amount of debt.
We took a risk and it paid off for us. It would not necessarily work out the same for everyone. Which is why each person needs to weigh their individual circumstances.

[SinkingFast]

This Chase thing is weird...as you know my discharge was last Feb....just paid off trustee to keep my SUV and yesterday there was something on pacer filed by my trustee to Chase...an objection to them...with feb. 28th as cut off...it's like what the heck is Chase coming after me for?

I hadn't used the card since 2001!!!! THey must have gotten flooded with a lot of bks is all I can imagine?

I have to think there's some validity to that point.

The CC Industry as a whole, paid boo koo bucks Lobbying Congress to push this BK Law Reform. And who wound up at the bottom of the heap for payback?? The CC Industry. They landed right where they started. Before they spent the money.

The New Law favors Secureds. They are all but protected. And Priority Debts. Mainly the IRS and Student Loans, but also child support payments and such. And CC's fell dead last in the list as to who gets paid what, when.

So all their big bucks bought them Nothing! Zip! Zilcho! Nada!

And maybe now, after testing the waters under the New Law for a year or so, the CC's are fighting back.

[GawVa]

Called out attorney today , he said no problem in his opinion and he is filing paper work to meet them in court. He did not see how they can prove we
did anything fraudulent.
My wife is out of work due to medical problems that are documented and the income will not return and the balance transfers where done while she was working and prior to 90 days.
Some post had ask about when we first consultes our attorney , one week prior to filing.

[HHM]

I hope you fair well. Please come back and let us know how it went so we can all benefit from your experience.

Remember, all we can do in this forum is speculate about any specific circumstance. We never have all the facts of anyone's particular circumstances when we are responding to posts.

Good luck.

[GoingDown]

Just to flesh out HHM's thoughts a bit: My attorney explained it like this. The argument a creditor will make on activity over 90 days is, the date you chose to file is spurious. You knew that the burden of proof shifted to the creditor after 90 days and you intentionally waited to file. They'll try and support that claim by asking when you first spoke with an attorney about bk and draw an inference that the lawyer told you to wait,etc.
Now then, there comes a point where that argument just won't work and that appears to be at the 6 month mark. My lawyer {who has been doing bl's since the 80"s} said that he had never lost a challenge where there had been at least 6 months between filing and cc use. He also said he'd never had a challenge when there had been at least a year beteen filing an cc activity. Patience is your best friend sometimes.
Myself, I had 7 months between filing and any cc activity and it had been 11 months since my last BT. I had no creditor objections and I had 4 Chase accounts.

This is good advice.

Sometimes debtors are in too much of a hurry to file bk, usually because they fear the nasty consequences of judgments-- wage garnishment, bank levy, and real estate liens.

But, in most cases, creditors will not file a lawsuit against you until a year or so after you have stopped making payments. And if you file motions and answer the lawsuit in a timely manner you can delay the judgment for at least several months, giving yourself plenty of time to file bk and stop the lawsuit dead in its tracks, long before they can garnish your wages or put a lien on your house.

And as most people seem to indicate on this forum, after a year you probably won't have to battle any creditors at all during your bk. I think waiting longer is worth it.