Need feedback on this situation.

[chargers777]

So, I ended up converting to a Chapter 7 in April 2023 and was discharged a few months later.

Today, I get a bill for emergency (ambulance) from the city I live in for about 2k for service in December 2022. The bill is September 2023. I went over my creditor list and I am sure the ambulance was put in, but I am not sure where to find it. The city is not listed in my creditor list, as I never got a bill from them until today. I am not going to pay it, of course. This seems to be done in bad faith from the city, and I am never paying this bill. I will call my attorney to see what my options are. I just find this to be dishonest and wrong from the city, to send a bill over 9 months after the date of service. I am sure the judge will take this into consideration. Besides the fact I don't have the money to give them, I am just certain that I have rights here.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

[justbroke]

I wouldn't say it's in bad faith at all. You filed in around July/August 2022. This new debt is for ambulance (emergency) services in December 2022. That's called "post-petition" debt. If you were still in a Chapter 13 you'd easily be 100% responsible for repaying that debt. Now, since you were in an active bankruptcy the city likely waited for the automatic stay to stop; they probably contacted the city attorney or outside counsel to make that decision. For the debt to be discharged in the converted case, the debtor's attorney would usually file "amended" schedules to add the new creditor(s) to the bankruptcy upon conversion to Chapter 7. That puts the creditors on notice.

You will definitely need to talk to your attorney. I don't know the nuances of adding post-petition debt from a Chapter 13 to Chapter 7 conversion. Because this debt appears to have been "post-petition" it would not be in your original schedules. If anything, it would be listed in the "amended" schedules when the case was converted.

You could just try sending the city a copy of your discharge and a letter telling them that the debt was discharged. That may be enough to make them go away. BUT... I would try to get in contact with your attorney first. It looks better coming from the attorney and if your attorney has the amended schedules he could send a copy as well.

[chargers777]

I wouldn't say it's in bad faith at all. You filed in around July/August 2022. This new debt is for ambulance (emergency) services in December 2022. That's called "post-petition" debt. If you were still in a Chapter 13 you'd easily be 100% responsible for repaying that debt. Now, since you were in an active bankruptcy the city likely waited for the automatic stay to stop; they probably contacted the city attorney or outside counsel to make that decision. For the debt to be discharged in the converted case, the debtor's attorney would usually file "amended" schedules to add the new creditor(s) to the bankruptcy upon conversion to Chapter 7. That puts the creditors on notice.

You will definitely need to talk to your attorney. I don't know the nuances of adding post-petition debt from a Chapter 13 to Chapter 7 conversion. Because this debt appears to have been "post-petition" it would not be in your original schedules. If anything, it would be listed in the "amended" schedules when the case was converted.

You could just try sending the city a copy of your discharge and a letter telling them that the debt was discharged. That may be enough to make them go away. BUT... I would try to get in contact with your attorney first. It looks better coming from the attorney and if your attorney has the amended schedules he could send a copy as well.

I filed in April 2023, not 2022.

[justbroke]

I filed in April 2023, not 2022.

I'm sorry. You posted that you converted in April 2023. Your other posts suggest that you filed last year.

The question remains, however, is whether the actual creditor was listed in the petition. If they never had actual (or constructive) notice then they are not violating the stay. I can't tell you if the debt is dischargeable and discharged. you will need to talk to your creditor.

You will still need to talk to your attorney to see if the creditor was listed. The attorney will then decide whether they need to be listed or a simple letter to the creditor is necessary.

[chargers777]

I'm sorry. You posted that you converted in April 2023. Your other posts suggest that you filed last year.

The question remains, however, is whether the actual creditor was listed in the petition. If they never had actual (or constructive) notice then they are not violating the stay. I can't tell you if the debt is dischargeable and discharged. you will need to talk to your creditor.

You will still need to talk to your attorney to see if the creditor was listed. The attorney will then decide whether they need to be listed or a simple letter to the creditor is necessary.

Thanks for the feedback.

I am sure they were listed.

But, if not, I really don't see how they can come after me 9 months later.

There has to be some protection for people that file in these situations.

I guess I could always fight it if needed down the line.

Also, I just find it very fishy that they would wait this long to send the bill.

Regardless, I will take the hit on the credit before I ever pay them because I find this highly unethical.

[chargers777]

Thanks again for the feedback.

I sent this over to my attorney, via email.

[justbroke]

There is protection. It's called both the automatic stay and permanent discharge injunction. If they were not listed or were listed but had the wrong address information (or went to the wrong creditor), then the creditor was not notified. If you had a "no asset" Chapter 7, then the debt is likely discharged. I say likely, because you're dealing with a governmental entity.

I'm guessing that they didn't receive actual notice.

Your attorney will send them the discharge order and tell them that the debt was discharged.

[chargers777]

There is protection. It's called both the automatic stay and permanent discharge injunction. If they were not listed or were listed but had the wrong address information (or went to the wrong creditor), then the creditor was not notified. If you had a "no asset" Chapter 7, then the debt is likely discharged. I say likely, because you're dealing with a governmental entity.

I'm guessing that they didn't receive actual notice.

Your attorney will send them the discharge order and tell them that the debt was discharged.

Let's see.

Should be ok.

They seem to be taking shot at me here, to send the bill over 9 months after date of service.

I would think the court would side with me here, if it goes there. Especially since all the other medical debts I had from the same incident were discharged.

Also, the purpose of the chapter 7 is to get a new start and losing 2k is not a new start for a debt that should have been discharged to begin with.

[justbroke]

It's not about the court siding with you. It's about whether or not the debt is both dischargeable and discharged. The court can only go by the rules of the bankruptcy code. A creditor can generally collect on a debt up until the statute of limitations expires which is usually at least a few years.

Your attorney will take care of this. It is possible that the creditor never received notice of the bankruptcy. Since you say the other did and that other debt was discharged, it reads as a "notice" issue. If it's a collection agency trying to collect, then they may not have been told by the original creditor that the debt was subject to the bankruptcy discharge. This actually happens more often than you would think.

However, merely sending a collection notice doesn't mean that they are violating the law. The would have needed to have "actual" notice in order to be in violation. This is why it's important that your attorney send the creditor the notice of bankruptcy and/or a copy of the discharge order. When that is done, then the creditor is on "actual" notice and the protect of the law kick in. I myself, and others, have received post discharge collection letters. They are very simple to deal with when the original creditor was listed on the correct schedule in the bankruptcy paperwork.

The only exception would be if this were somehow non-dischargeable. Governmental entities have an exception, but I think that exception only applies to fines.

[chargers777]

Update.

So, I have a chapter 7 asset case, so I have to pay a $32 filing fee and additional attorney fee of $100, to get this creditor off my back.

I guess the thing to learn is to always keep track of all possible creditors when you file.

I got hook winked here from the city, I think in this case since they sent the bill 9 months after (the timing of it all from them is annoying and I am sure they knew what they were doing).

Very annoying to lose more money. But, I save close to $1800 anyway in this case, so all is not bad.

[justbroke]

It's an asset case? That may prove to be problematic. As I wrote, you must list the creditors. That the creditor didn't bill a debtor (it could be that they tried an insurance route first) does not relieve a debtor from paying the debt.

One should always keep track of their creditors when filing. Generally the attorney will run a tri-merge credit report to pull in as many creditors that are "known" via the credit bureaus. Any unknown creditor will not receive notice. The time they take to start collections can vary. You didn't mention if this was the original creditor, the city, or a collection agency. Typically things go to a collection after 180-240 days (6-8 months) when they are written off. A write-off is still collectible.

I don't blame the creditor or the attorney in this case. It appears that the attorney didn't list the creditor and the creditor wasn't noticed. That it took them the standard 6-8 months to send it to collections sounds about right. There are a myriad of reasons that a debtor may not receive an initial "bill" for emergency services. (How did the city "anticipate" that you'd file bankruptcy in April 2023 on a December 2022 bill? I think this was just a delay in emergency services billing.)

But, as you say, always remember who your creditors are. This includes family members who also aren't going to show up on a credit report or send you a timely bill. This also includes relatively "recent" creditors who may not have yet billed or reported anything to a credit bureau.

[chargers777]

It's an asset case? That may prove to be problematic. As I wrote, you must list the creditors. That the creditor didn't bill a debtor (it could be that they tried an insurance route first) does not relieve a debtor from paying the debt.

One should always keep track of their creditors when filing. Generally the attorney will run a tri-merge credit report to pull in as many creditors that are "known" via the credit bureaus. Any unknown creditor will not receive notice. The time they take to start collections can vary. You didn't mention if this was the original creditor, the city, or a collection agency. Typically things go to a collection after 180-240 days (6-8 months) when they are written off. A write-off is still collectible.

I don't blame the creditor or the attorney in this case. It appears that the attorney didn't list the creditor and the creditor wasn't noticed. That it took them the standard 6-8 months to send it to collections sounds about right. There are a myriad of reasons that a debtor may not receive an initial "bill" for emergency services. (How did the city "anticipate" that you'd file bankruptcy in April 2023 on a December 2022 bill? I think this was just a delay in emergency services billing.)

But, as you say, always remember who your creditors are. This includes family members who also aren't going to show up on a credit report or send you a timely bill. This also includes relatively "recent" creditors who may not have yet billed or reported anything to a credit bureau.

Another mistake I made was not waiting for all the assets to clear before filing.

That is important for people with assets to consider. You can always file later. Being patient is important in BK if you have assets.