How to declare 'unclaimed property' the state controller holds?

[bornfree2]

I found out i have unclaimed property with state controller. I filled their form and claimed it. They said it will take 30 days to process.

While waiting for this check to come to me, what do i put in the filing? Its in limbo.

- Is it declared as cash I expect to receive?
- Do i list each claim with its number and amount?
- Can I exempt it as cash? what category of exemption would it fall under?
- When I get the money post filing, will it be money outside the trustee estate control?

Its not a large amount so its not worth waiting to file to try to clear it out as cash. Its just in limbo and I dont know how to declare it so that i can exempt it to keep it.

[justbroke]

It's an asset based on the current value of the asset. If you don't know the value, when you file, some people would put $1 as the value and mark it contingent and/or unliquidated.

As for how California bankruptcy courts expect to deal with this, I list each separate one as a separate asset (as that what they are). Usually, someone would use an exemption which covers any property (including cash, cash equivalents, and/or unliquidated assets). If you have a wildcard that covers any property (including cash) and you have enough to cover this amount, then you would use the exemption which would cover this property.

Nothing is technically outside the bankruptcy estate until your exemptions are honored by the Trustee. Usually everyone has a good idea of what is exempted and what is not exempted within 10 days after the 341 Meeting. The Trustee may have up to 30 days, post the 341 meeting, to challenge an exemption -- but don't quote me as I'm not looking at the rules.

Technically everything remains property of the bankruptcy estate until the earlier of a dismissal, the Trustee abandons the asset, the discharge (if the Trustee specifically abandons certain/all assets in the discharge), or the closing, whichever comes first.

I think that most debtors are advised not to do anything with property until at a minimum the discharge. This is to prevent any issues where the Trustee could object to a claim of exemption and could leave the debtor in a precarious position. Especially if the debtor disposed of (sold) the property that the Trustee was expecting to administer/liquidate.

[bornfree2]

justbroke the 'assets' in question are left over balances from older bank accounts that were sent to the state controller. I know the value as its a dollar amount. Im assuming i will get one check to cover all claims. But this wont happen until after filing (but perhaps before the 341). Since its a check, i can just hold onto the check until the bk is over...hopefully past a period of time that the check doesnt expire. I understand I can exempt it with the wildcard.

i dont understand this : "Technically everything remains property of the bankruptcy estate until the earlier of a dismissal, the Trustee abandons the asset, the discharge (if the Trustee specifically abandons certain/all assets in the discharge), or the closing, whichever comes first."

Whats the point of the wildcard, car, tools of trade, etc exemptions if the trustee gets to object to it. If its 1550 in cash its 1550 in cash. Period. If its 28k+ in wildcard, thats what it is. period. What gives the trustee the right to argue if some item is actually worth more than its 'replacement value'. They can just pick the highest bidder value on ebay for some item, then claim your original estimate was too low, so ops you owe the difference. They strip you of everything, then do you the 'favor' of giving it back to you if you pay them the differences they claim things *should* be worth.

One thing is clear. I AM NEVER GETTING INTO DEBT AGAIN. This is such a stressful process and i know you like to repeat the 'relax your just a $65 client to them'. The filing is just a way itemize your entire property, turn it over to them with one signature, then pray the 'officers of the court' will be so kind as to not strip you naked...OR..throw you right back to the creditors who now know your property, your taxes, and your lack of option to discharge.

Mega stressful for. 'fresh start'. I can see so many things that can go wrong and become a mega nightmare. I dont think thats the point of the laws to start with. And yeah im gonna overthinking it all, so i know exactly what kind of shark tank im getting into with that 'voluntary petition'.

[justbroke]

i dont understand this : "Technically everything remains property of the bankruptcy estate until the earlier of a dismissal, the Trustee abandons the asset, the discharge (if the Trustee specifically abandons certain/all assets in the discharge), or the closing, whichever comes first."

Because a debtor may have misapplied an exemption, used an invalid exemption, overused an exemption, or the law doesn't allow the exemption for other reasons. One gotcha, in some States and probably not California, is that some restrict the wildcard. There is at least one State that has a nice wildcard, but the debtor can't exempt cash with that wildcard. Imagine thinking that your $21K exemptions covers your $20K in cash in the bank, you spend $10K of it just after filing, and the Trustee wants it back. It happens. It happens less frequently when you hire an attorney because the attorney is paid to know what applies when.

I can't even tell you exactly which exemptions to use as that is legal advice. I would hate to give someone bad advice and they lose money or property.

The point is that the exemptions must be validated by the Chapter 7 Trustee. yes, the Trustee gets to object to the exemptions because the debtor may have done the things listed above. Even worse, some Pro Se may not understand that, in California, you can only use System I or System II but not pick and choose from System I, System II, and the Federal exemption scheme. Without validation of the exemptions, anyone could just file and immediately start liquidating assets because they "requested" an exemption on Schedule C.

The reason that it is stressful for we Pro Se folk is that we are Pro Se. We don't let our attorney do all the worrying. I think that you, just as I have, overthinking this tremendously. About 95% of Chapter 7 cases are no asset and more than 99% sail through without much fanfare (or any fanfare at all).

There are some exceptions to the "don't do anything with any property before the Trustee evaluates the exemptions." You must continue to live, so pay your rent, get gasoline, buy food, and do the things to live. Don't sell any property. Don't do anything with things like 401(k) or the income tax refund you received post filing.

I believe that its frustrating for you because you're not using an attorney who would tell you all these things. Most of the time we are just over-analytical and overthinking. The fact is that the scenarios that I present are only scenarios and probably won't happen. But people do make mistakes. Pro Se filers make more mistakes on average than attorneys, but everyone can miss something and the Trustee may not like a particular claimed exemption.

So long as the petition is in good order and the exemptions are not applied incorrectly, there are no issues.

And, finally, as I keep repeating, the Trustees aren't going out of their way to waste their own money to try to get your hammer declared at $10. They only make $60-70 per case and they aren't going on fishing expeditions; at least the experienced Chapter 7 Trustees are not doing so. They know that a person down and out and without income is not hiding a Mona Lisa in their house. So long as the exemptions appear, on their face, to cover some property, it's fine.

[bornfree2]

So i found a hint of an answer to my question on the great courtlistener recap site. This filing:

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket...wallace-moore/

On page 19, lists it as:



Thats the general cash value exemption ($1550 limit in california).

[justbroke]

Pretty cool using that service to view the a sample schedule of exemptions (Schedule C).

[bornfree2]

Pretty cool using that service to view the a sample schedule of exemptions (Schedule C).

whats also revealing is the dockets attached to them. a lot of filings are not smooth sailing.