credit matrix - who owns the debt??

[bornfree2]

1- re: a landord with back rent

I make payments to a manager lady. She is the wife of the owner (i think, its a family business). The receipt book she gives me is for a hardware business her husband's brother runs. I can not find the original lease, but on the rent increase notice she signs it with her name and the address of this hardware company.

I plan on listing this hardware company and put c/o the wife/manager. Would that be enough to point the debt to them? Or is it keyed by the address

2- re: two credit card debts

One creditor who is suing me has handed off the task to a law firm. So I assume i list the original creditor not this law firm right?

The second creditor charged off the amount and then i got letter form different collection agencies. So do they now own the debt? Or do i list the original creditor?

Is everything basically keyed by the original account number? The discharge applies against that last four number and the bank name?

[Ekop785]

I would go to annualcreditreport.com and see who actually owns the debts. Often, creditors sell the debts to agencies, but other times, the agencies only act as collection agents (they do not necessarily own the debt). This information should be on correspondence that you may have received, but the credit report is free (if you use that site). Save it to PDF when you open it and open the links for all three credit report agencies.

There is a place on your BK paperwork to list agents who are collectors, but do NOT own the debt (so they will be notified and leave you alone).

[justbroke]

You can list anyone for notification. What many do, when there is a collection agency involved, is list the original creditor and the collection agency. For the collection agency a notation of "FOR NOTIFICATION ONLY" is usually the way that it's handled.

For a landlord you can do the same thing with a notification address, but typically you give notification based on the payment address of the landlord/owner.

[bornfree2]

i guess i dont understand is how the discharge order specifically identifies debts and amounts. The 'order of discharge' i found is generic. just says 'It is ordered, a discharge order is granted to: debtor name'. There is no specific amounts or persons.

I would expect it to say 'the debt to creditor 1-10 in the amount of $XXX is discharged'.

Is the idea here that it is a blanket forgiveness for ALL (non-exempt) debts prior to the filing date?

I understand the creditor matrix is for due process. I also understand listing secure/non secure debt is to flesh out more detail on the debts ... presumably so that if some zombie debt collector comes after me I can point to the petition and have proof that my account with the original debtors was discharged.

[justbroke]

This is something that is precedence and needs no explanation. A Chapter 7 bankruptcy discharges all debt that arose prior to the filing of the petition. This includes even those debts that were not listed in the petition. There has been a lot of cases regarding whether something needed to be listed in order to be discharged, but the law is crystal clear and is unambiguous.

11 UsC 727 section discharges the debtor from all debts that arose before the date of the order for relief under this chapter...

The Matrix is not for due process. The matrix is actually just a mailing matrix to help the Clerk's office send out notifications. The creditors are those that are scheduled which means that they are identified on Schedules A-G.

Now, there are nuances to that all debts precedence. This only counts for no-asset cases. In an asset case, a creditor that was not listed and not notified would not be discharged. The reason is that the creditor was not afforded the opportunity to participate in the bankruptcy. So, in the instance of an asset case, only those creditors which were scheduled are summarily discharged. It's a very important distinction.

presumably so that if some zombie debt collector comes after me I can point to the petition and have proof that my account with the original debtors was discharged.

In most cases where a creditor attempts to collect a discharged debt, a debtor would warn the creditor that they are violating the permanent discharge injunction. For me, I send them a 10 day notice to affirmatively reply that they are not attempting to collect on a discharged debt and that they will no longer send any correspondence or make any efforts to collect the debt. Otherwise I file a motion to re-open and, contemporaneously, file a motion for sanctions.

It just doesn't happen that often. For me, I have had no creditor try to collect on a discharged debt. I did have issues during the stay and those were dealt with similarly. The stay and the injunction are different beasts.

[shipo]

justbroke speaks the truth!

In my case, I had to seek protection from both personal debt and personally guaranteed business debt to the tune of a couple hundred thousand dollars; the instant the stay went into effect back in 2015, ALL phone calls and other attempts to collect on the debt ceased immediately. During the five years of the Chapter 13, there wasn't a single peep from any of the collection agencies, original creditors, and junk debt buyers, and since the discharge was granted, every debt I had when I filed has dropped off my credit report, save one. Ironically the single "Included In Bankruptcy" item remaining on my credit reports was the loan from VW Credit for my wife's GTI, which I was compelled to pay for per our separation agreement (we have since gotten back together). Funny thing though, that loan was fully paid off and never had a late, and yet it's still both hurting and helping my credit rating (it helps average age even though it is considered a DEROG on the report).

bornfree2, as you have so succinctly put it several times, you are over-thinking it. At this point it is in your best interest to keep moving forward and trust the system.