Are BK filings public info? Can thieves see your assest?

[bornfree2]

Ready for stupid question of the new week?

If I list my assets with extreme detail (think inventory list of everything in my dwellings and other property)
does that file schedule become public knowledge?
Can someone look it up on pacer (or other) and basically read what people have in their possessions as a case proceeds?

If not, are they public info later on after the case closes?

Im getting at that if that is the case, then it would make it for anyone to get robbed since the public at large knows what they have? (!)

[justbroke]

Bankruptcy records are public information. All bankruptcy records are available online through a system known as PACER (Public Access to Court Electronic Records). PACER also covert eh U.S. District (criminal) Court as well. The recrods last forever, as far as I know. I can still see my case from 2008.

The court understand the issue with this being public records. Certain information is automatically sealed (tax returns, payroll records). However, be careful with any document that you submit to the court other than the initial petition and certification of your SSN. All other documents submitted, which contain your SSN, should be redacted.

With respect to your asset list, it is very generic. Most things are in categories. I categories all mine as "miscellaneous" property; misc. household goods, misc. media and books, misc. clothing, misc. furnishings, etc. The only thing I specifically listed were those things over $500 in value such as a 50" Plasma TV. Everything else was lumped into categories.

I'm not certain that the bankrupt individual is the best candidate to rob of from whom to steal an identity.

[bornfree2]

1- Misc [category] sounds good. Do they have an official list of categories they publish to try to match things in their buckets?

2- This is feeling like doing a tax return. Mixed with an inventory list for insurance purposes. With a sprinkle of a will to protect my property before the filing date. Like a burial rite of the old 'financial life' and room for a new start. (lets hope)

3- Thanks for the tips

[justbroke]

1- Misc [category] sounds good. Do they have an official list of categories they publish to try to match things in their buckets?

That's how the bankruptcy forms already show most of this. See the bankruptcy form Schedules A-F.

• Household goods and furnishings
• Electronics
• Collectibles of value
• Equipment for sports and hobbies
• Firearms
• Clothes
• Jewelry
• Non-farm animals
• Other personal property not listed above

This is from bankruptcy Schedule A/B... https://www.uscourts.gov/forms/indiv...ty-individuals.

2- This is feeling like doing a tax return. Mixed with an inventory list for insurance purposes. With a sprinkle of a will to protect my property before the filing date. Like a burial rite of the old 'financial life' and room for a new start. (lets hope)

It's actually worse. The average bankruptcy petition is 50+ pages. It's very detailed down to the creditor level. I suspect that yours will be on the lower end, at around 30 pages.

[bornfree2]

It's actually worse. The average bankruptcy petition is 50+ pages. It's very detailed down to the creditor level. I suspect that yours will be on the lower end, at around 30 pages.

Yeah but most of that im noticing is 'padding' (for my seemingly simple case). The schedules are the brutal ones, the exemptions (with wildcard trick..thank you california for 30k in credit) is straightforward. I got a car which i own, clothes on my back, and computer stuff and tools to make a living.

I think i look pretty good on paper. Maybe im an idiot. Yeah probably or I wouldnt be spending a beautiful sunday here talking about how to save my titanic personal estate with a BK7 lol.

[justbroke]

It's not padding. Every form must be completed even though the form may be marked (some have a checkbox) as not applicable. That puts creditors, and the Trustee, on notice that you may not have any "Executory Contracts" or that you don't have any "Real Property." Plus, it ensures that you have reviewed all forms and that you, under oath, submitted that you have no Executory contracts or Real Property and didn't simply miss the forms.

[bornfree2]

It's not padding. Every form must be completed even though the form may be marked (some have a checkbox) as not applicable. That puts creditors, and the Trustee, on notice that you may not have any "Executory Contracts" or that you don't have any "Real Property." Plus, it ensures that you have reviewed all forms and that you, under oath, submitted that you have no Executory contracts or Real Property and didn't simply miss the forms.

- yeah disregard my ignorance. Im just starting to print everything out. Lets just say an order for toner HIGH YIELD and stocks of new paper need to race their way here lol

That puts creditors, and the Trustee, on notice that you may not have any "Executory Contracts" or that you don't have any "Real Property." Plus, it ensures that you have reviewed all forms and that you, under oath, submitted that you have no Executory contracts or Real Property and didn't simply miss the forms.

yeah i have no idea what those two things mean ATM. From the form it looks like real property is realestate? Dont have any - i rent. And I dont understand Executory Contracts ... perhaps something to do with business contracts with others? Will add to my long list of google questions and rabbit holes

[justbroke]

At lest one of those California Bankruptcy courts have a Pro Se guide and one has the "packet" for Chapter 7 debtors.

Yes, real property is real estate (tangible land and buildings and, in some instances, a mobile home). Personal property is everything else (cars, furniture, clothing, the $$$ in your bank, etc). Executory contracts and Leases includes vehicle leases and apartment leases. Most people don't have executory leases.

It's a lot to attack in 7 days. Trust me that I've been there with the 7 days (trying to stop a foreclosure, so I thought).

[bornfree2]

At lest one of those California Bankruptcy courts have a Pro Se guide and one has the "packet" for Chapter 7 debtors.

Yes, real property is real estate (tangible land and buildings and, in some instances, a mobile home). Personal property is everything else (cars, furniture, clothing, the $$$ in your bank, etc). Executory contracts and Leases includes vehicle leases and apartment leases. Most people don't have executory leases.

It's a lot to attack in 7 days. Trust me that I've been there with the 7 days (trying to stop a foreclosure, so I thought).

1- im finding all the special resources and i will document to share with the group at large. Could serve as a template/checklist/thread for future people. i guess thats the point of this great, great site. Honestly, this place is a refugee in this WAR!

2- re: executory contracts - does that mean the apartment rental im behind? I have no idea what the LLC is for them. IS there a public record database that tells you who owns the apartment i am in so i can list them in the creditor matrix? Or do i list the manager/officer? so they are notified of the suit. I believe i MUST be the owner/Corporation that i owe the money. I make check payments in cash so its never a particular person.

3- it IS a lot. and if i find a road block (how do i list the apartment debt in the creditor matrix which is required for my barebones filing), so be it. At the least im on a running start on the road on week 1

[justbroke]

2- re: executory contracts - does that mean the apartment rental im behind? I have no idea what the LLC is for them. IS there a public record database that tells you who owns the apartment i am in so i can list them in the creditor matrix? Or do i list the manager/officer? so they are notified of the suit. I believe i MUST be the owner/Corporation that i owe the money. I make check payments in cash so its never a particular person.

An apartment lease is just a lease (not an executory contract). There are some special cases for residential leases when there is an eviction awarded or in progress. Since there is a COVID-related moratorium for evictions in many cities/states, I do not know this impact. If, however, you want to get out of the lease, this is an opportunity to reject the lease.

3- it IS a lot. and if i find a road block (how do i list the apartment debt in the creditor matrix which is required for my barebones filing), so be it. At the least im on a running start on the road on week 1

The apartment lease is a lease, so goes on Schedule G - Executory Contracts and Leases. Please be aware that the landlord would end up on the mailing matrix and will likely be notified of the bankruptcy. That may complicate things.

I would not file a skeleton petition. Those are only really necessary to prevent a foreclosure and sometimes, in extraordinary situations, to prevent the imminent repossession of a vehicle.

[bornfree2]

The apartment lease is a lease, so goes on Schedule G - Executory Contracts and Leases. Please be aware that the landlord would end up on the mailing matrix and will likely be notified of the bankruptcy. That may complicate things.

1- Well they cant retaliate to evict me if i file and am cleared. Only via non payment of rent. And with Covid im protected (from non payment evicition) up till July i think. Plus there is another provision they put in the law that doesnt allow them to sue for the back rent for three or six more months. However they can evict if i dont pay full rent again. Bottom line i need to pay full rent in July and the BK will clear out the back rent. They will be pissed but im within my rights and they collect over $300,000 every month (from my back of the napkin calculation of their multiple units). So i dont feel bad if they are burnt a measly thousands in back rent owed. Plus they can raise the rent every year like they have so dutifully done.

I would not file a skeleton petition. Those are only really necessary to prevent a foreclosure and sometimes, in extraordinary situations, to prevent the imminent repossession of a vehicle.

My logic is so i can stop the lawsuit for even going to default judgement and using a motion of stay (?) and not pay the $200+ for an answer. Or maybe i have that wrong and id have to pay $200 anyways to file a motion of stay. Or i dont even have to do it and let it all default on its own. But then i risk the surety of them getting a lien judgement as we have discussed . I dont want any other paperwork that is beyond what im understanding now (no hearings, motions, etc).

Just a clean , quick, upper cut to knock out the creditor overlords before they can say default...and lieeeen please .

[justbroke]

Bottom line i need to pay full rent in July and the BK will clear out the back rent.

Bankruptcy doesn't clear up back rent if you choose to stay in the leaseholder's property. The leaseholder, landlord, retains their rights to evict unless you cure the money owed (the back rent). That's one of the subtleties of bankruptcy and residential leases. This is precisely because you must either assume or reject the lease. If you assume the lease, that means that you accept the terms as if bankruptcy was not filed. This puts you right back into the position that you had, the day before filing. But also adds on any fees incurred since the day of filing until the lease issues are resolved.

Unless you are sure of what you want to do, be careful with the choice (Schedule G Unexpired Leases). This is where legal maneuvers are important. Again, I don't and won't pretend to understand anything about the eviction moratorium. But, filing a bankruptcy and choosing to "assume" a lease... could be counterproductive since that says "no foul... I accept the lease and can't discharge it for another 6 years minimum". So would rejecting the lease as you may only have 45 days to actually do what you say that you're going to do (surrender and vacate).

My logic is so i can stop the lawsuit for even going to default judgement and using a motion of stay (?) and not pay the $200+ for an answer. Or maybe i have that wrong and id have to pay $200 anyways to file a motion of stay. Or i dont even have to do it and let it all default on its own. But then i risk the surety of them getting a lien judgement as we have discussed . I dont want any other paperwork that is beyond what im understanding now (no hearings, motions, etc).

If you answer the complaint, you could actually cause them to pursue a summary judgment based on your responses in the answer. There are strategies here too. I'm not savvy with those strategies, but answering would, at least, prevent a default judgment. Since you are likely unable to afford to pay the $200 fee to answer, you may be able to answer and also ask the court for a reduction or waiver of the fee. Filing an answer would also require you to file it with the court and properly serve the plaintiff. Yes, more paperwork.

Just a clean , quick, upper cut to knock out the creditor overlords before they can say default...and lieeeen please .

No uppercut to the landlord creditor unless you reject the lease and vacate the property.

[bornfree2]

1- I actually want my landlord to find proper relief. We have a good relationship. I WANT to live here cause the alternative is homelessness literally. I have no income. no assets. no job prospects. real bad credit. no one will now rent to me esp where i live. at the moment thats the reality and the covid relief protection was truly a God send to millions. So yeah, there will no vacating to release the lease. I want them to be made whole with the 80% CARES 2 billion funds distributed to california for this purpose

2- So now it sounds like i DONT include them in the credit matrix and just put my the credit card companies. The one that is currently suing me and the other (even bigger one) who hasnt sued me yet. Ill find out how to disclose this lease in the forms, (or if i even have to).

In the Order of discharge i found it says that "this order does not prevent debtors from paying any debt voluntarily or from paying reaffirmed debts ..." I read that as saying 'the discharge applies to the creditors you listed in the matrix and anyone outside it remains a private contract between the two and you can pay them as you agree"

3- You are right. I could right an answer and apply for the fee waiver (or installment) and that would let me file without a dime AND push that summons clock further for myself. This may be the most winning move actually and id enjoy the paperwork to learn this system

[justbroke]

1- I actually want my landlord to find proper relief. We have a good relationship. I WANT to live here cause the alternative is homelessness literally. I have no income. no assets. no job prospects. real bad credit. no one will now rent to me esp where i live. at the moment thats the reality and the covid relief protection was truly a God send to millions. So yeah, there will no vacating to release the lease. I want them to be made whole with the 80% CARES 2 billion funds distributed to california for this purpose

Well, yoru strategy will depend on whether you can afford the rent both after the bankruptcy and after the any CARES Act relief.

2- So now it sounds like i DONT include them in the credit matrix and just put my the credit card companies. The one that is currently suing me and the other (even bigger one) who hasnt sued me yet. Ill find out how to disclose this lease in the forms, (or if i even have to).

Technically, a debtor must include any unexpired lease and must choose to either assume or reject the lease. If you are on a month-to-month lease, then it's an expired. In the case of an expired lease (month-to-month) you'd not list the lease.

In the Order of discharge i found it says that "this order does not prevent debtors from paying any debt voluntarily or from paying reaffirmed debts ..." I read that as saying 'the discharge applies to the creditors you listed in the matrix and anyone outside it remains a private contract between the two and you can pay them as you agree"

Unfortunately that's not what it's saying and that's not how we select which creditor(s) is included. All creditors must be listed on the petition and included in the bankruptcy. After all that debt is discharged, a debtor could chose to voluntarily pay some or all of their past debt with any discharged creditor. You should never exclude any creditor from the bankruptcy filing. Especially since it literally discharges all debt that was incurred before filing (except in some limited situations where it's an asset case and you didn't notify the creditor). Unfortunately we don't get to pick and choose which creditors to include.

(A reaffirmed debt is one that you actually want to continue as if bankruptcy was never filed. This is almost always a very bad idea. There are limited exceptions where a bankruptcy court would even seriously entertain a Pro Se debtor to reaffirm any debt.)

3- You are right. I could right an answer and apply for the fee waiver (or installment) and that would let me file without a dime AND push that summons clock further for myself. This may be the most winning move actually and id enjoy the paperwork to learn this system

It would give you time to complete a bankruptcy petition which won't cause you major headaches.

[bornfree2]

Well, yoru strategy will depend on whether you can afford the rent both after the bankruptcy and after the any CARES Act relief.

Technically, a debtor must include any unexpired lease and must choose to either assume or reject the lease. If you are on a month-to-month lease, then it's an expired. In the case of an expired lease (month-to-month) you'd not list the lease.

Unfortunately that's not what it's saying and that's not how we select which creditor(s) is included. All creditors must be listed on the petition and included in the bankruptcy. After all that debt is discharged, a debtor could chose to voluntarily pay some or all of their past debt with any discharged creditor. You should never exclude any creditor from the bankruptcy filing. Especially since it literally discharges all debt that was incurred before filing (except in some limited situations where it's an asset case and you didn't notify the creditor). Unfortunately we don't get to pick and choose which creditors to include.

Without counsels do a people fall, And deliverance [is] in a multitude of counsellors. - Proverbs 11:14

And once again, your wizardry illuminates the minefield i was about to walk into if i proceeded with my ignorance.

It would give you time to complete a bankruptcy petition which won't cause you major headaches.

If I apply for a fee waiver/installment is that not yet another loan I created into existence? Something I should pay off before the bk filing later? Or is gov/state 'advances' like this fall into some kind of special category sort of like tax preparation fees are deductible ?

All this BK in my headspace has be thinking i shouldnt even ask someone for a quarter before filing lest it be a loan and they are a creditor lol!