MA, Inability to determine presumed abuse.

[bnkrptmplz2]

Hi Folks,

I am stressing out! I need some help. Wife and I filed with an attorney earlier in october. We had our 341 on Nov. 21st and the Trustee marked as a no distribution case...Then, on December 2nd the UST filed this:

Having reviewed the documents, if any, filed by the debtor and any additional documents provided to the United States Trustee, the United States Trustee is currently unable to determine whether the debtor's case would be presumed to be an abuse under Section 707(b) of the Bankruptcy Code. Filed by U.S. Trustee.


Our case is under review or audit according to our attorney, we had to provide a bunch of bank statements and paystubs for the whole year, proof of our expenses at the time of financing our cars...it took some time but the audit firm has all of that now...

Just wondering if any of yall have had experience with this and what it was. IS it possible they posted that filing to buy themselves time for the audit to finish?


I am scared we will have blown 1700 dollars to file for nothing....provided everything needed to our attorney for filing. We are just a hair under the median so I am afraid they are trying to stick it to us for no good reason......we don't own anything except a ton of credit card debt and some furniture.

Any experience sharing would be appreciated!

Thanks!

[justbroke]

Having reviewed the documents, if any, filed by the debtor and any additional documents provided to the United States Trustee, the United States Trustee is currently unable to determine whether the debtor's case would be presumed to be an abuse under Section 707(b) of the Bankruptcy Code. Filed by U.S. Trustee.

Was this filed within 10 days of your 341 Meeting? It appears the UST is just trying to put, on the docket, that they are still looking at the case. They have 30 days from that date to make a determine on a presumption of abuse.

Just wondering if any of yall have had experience with this and what it was. IS it possible they posted that filing to buy themselves time for the audit to finish?

You'll have to work with your attorney and see what exactly the UST doesn't like. If this is just an audit then that should not preclude your case being discharged.

Unless and until the UST actually puts something in a writing, it's anyone's guess as to what they could be looking at. If you're under-the-median it is likely not that your case is an abuse.

Unfortunately, you'll just have to wait.

[bnkrptmplz2]

Hi Justbroke,

Thanks for following up so quickly.

With regards to whether or not that was filed within 10 days...yes...it was filed on the 10th day.

We have sent all of the paperwork to our attorney that was requested and we are anxiously awaiting more information.

My guess about us being audited is likely because we are under just a few hundred of the median, however, we should still qualify through the means test as well....Guess its just a waiting game to see if we will need to do more paperwork...

Thank you for your insight.

[justbroke]

This is standard procedure, then. If the UST is busy or there is an audit, then they file that "boilerplate" statement just before or on the 10th day following the 341 Meeting.

If you received that "random" audit, that has absolutely nothing to do with your case itself. It's just a random audit required by the Executive Office of the United States Trustee. The regional USTs are ordered to perform an audit on a certain percentage of cases. It's about 1 in 1,000 (or so... as they never really comply and it's usually lower).

[bnkrptmplz2]

Thanks again! I’m not sure if it’s random or an exception, any way to find out?

[justbroke]

Thanks again! I’m not sure if it’s random or an exception, any way to find out?

If it's random, it's a third party firm.

[vet2019]

Hi Folks,

I am stressing out! I need some help. Wife and I filed with an attorney earlier in october. We had our 341 on Nov. 21st and the Trustee marked as a no distribution case...Then, on December 2nd the UST filed this:

Having reviewed the documents, if any, filed by the debtor and any additional documents provided to the United States Trustee, the United States Trustee is currently unable to determine whether the debtor's case would be presumed to be an abuse under Section 707(b) of the Bankruptcy Code. Filed by U.S. Trustee.


Our case is under review or audit according to our attorney, we had to provide a bunch of bank statements and paystubs for the whole year, proof of our expenses at the time of financing our cars...it took some time but the audit firm has all of that now...

Just wondering if any of yall have had experience with this and what it was. IS it possible they posted that filing to buy themselves time for the audit to finish?


I am scared we will have blown 1700 dollars to file for nothing....provided everything needed to our attorney for filing. We are just a hair under the median so I am afraid they are trying to stick it to us for no good reason......we don't own anything except a ton of credit card debt and some furniture.

Any experience sharing would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Some audits are because something is suspected (usually in high asset cases from my understanding) and some are random. I filed last year and got flagged for random audit. My attorney was annoyed by it because it’s more work but he did a really great job. It was also only his second audit of his long career. I provided everything and he was able to justify/explain every question. I had some one time additional ‘income’ that he was able to justify and I had also bought a car and house shortly before filing, $0 down on both; I had some very unique life circumstances. Audit cleared by audit agency. I was stressed the entire time too. I would say if you haven’t done anything fraudulently you shouldn’t have anything to worry about. Just be very responsive to your attorney with any questions and documents so they can do their job with the audit agency. DO NOT speak directly with the audit agency.

[bnkrptmplz2]

I guess that is the kicker then.

I have NO idea if my audit is a random audit or an exception audit, is there a way you can tell in PACER or should I just ask my Attorney?

I am assuming this is going to be a nightmare of an experience because of the following:

• I have a HUGE cellphone plan that my whole family is on, each person sends me money monthly to pay for their portion of the bill.
• I pay all the bills and rent for my apartment and my roommate and Wife send me money to pay for their bills.
• I buy groceries for my roommate when I go grocery shopping, he sends me the money each week to buy them.

My guess is due to the huge volume of money going in and out of my account, I am going to need to answer a TON of questions about this to the auditor.






Thanks!

[justbroke]

You can ask your attorney if it's random or selected. The questions are about what you filed and detail around the numbers. It shouldn't be a nightmare. The auditor will review your petition and then ask question about anything that needs clarification. It may be a lot of paperwork to explain the numbers.

You won't know if it's a ton of questions, until they give you the questions.

[bnkrptmplz2]

Attorney said that the UST does not provide the information to them as to whether or not the audit was random or selected, however, they did need to provide the paperwork directly to the UST office...so?....exception?

[justbroke]

Attorney said that the UST does not provide the information to them as to whether or not the audit was random or selected, however, they did need to provide the paperwork directly to the UST office...so?....exception?

Yeah, gold ole UST. So secretive. If you provided the paperwork directly to the UST, then it looks more like an internal UST audit. This can happen and most of the time, the UST is just checking and confirming the numbers. Hopefully you hear something back from the UST in 20 days or so.... that they don't need anything else.