Chap 7 Schedule J - Expenses Before or After BK?

[AmBee47]

I'm preparing to file Chapter 7 Pro Se, and I've filled out almost all of the forms, but I have a question about Schedule J. Changes in my circumstances has forced me to simply stop paying several credit cards in anticipation of filing BK.

When filling out Schedule J (expenses), should I list my expenses as they SHOULD have been (i.e., including those credit card payments), or what? The other forms were straightforward enough, but I'm confused about Schedule J...

Thanks!

[justbroke]

Welcome to the forum! The purpose of that line is for changes in income and expenses that "might" occur after you file. An example would be that your tax bracket may change because you earn less income. It could be that you are expecting your overtime to go away.


Generally, no one puts anything in that box unless they are explaining some of the expenses.

Please remember that Schedule J is for allowable and "actual" expenses with a slant towards the future (after filing). You would not include credit card payments because such payments are not "allowable".

[AmBee47]

Welcome to the forum!

Why, thank you, sir!

The purpose of that line is for changes in income and expenses that "might" occur after you file... Please remember that Schedule J is for allowable and "actual" expenses with a slant towards the future (after filing). You would not include credit card payments because such payments are not "allowable".

Please accept my considerable thanks for your helpful reply! The take-away for me is that I must not list credit card (or other) debt that would be liquidated should the court grant my Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Furthermore, I should only list allowable expenses that Schedule J lists such as ongoing rent and allowed living expenses.

One issue remains, though: What about credit payments that I am NOT seeking liquidation of? For example, I have a personal unsecured loan from a personal lending group that I want to continue to pay off to the end, and if American Express will allow it, I'd like to keep my Amex Blue account going by continuing to pay off the account. I have not listed either of these creditors on my Schedule E/F because I do not want them discharged, and I hope to keep them active.

Are these non-discharged payments allowable on Schedule J?

[leonel9]

You are required to list all unsecured creditors on Schedule E/F, and cannot selectively exclude those you with to retain by simply not listing them. The process for retaining the debt(s) would be to reaffirm the debt during bankruptcy.

With that in mind, I find it extremely hard to believe that American Express, with as conservative as they are in underwriting, will allow you to keep this credit card open in any circumstance. Nearly every credit card issuer will close your account after finding out about your bankruptcy filing (which they will find out about from your credit report if nothing else). Reaffirming the debt doesn't ensure you will keep your account open -- it only continues to make you responsible for repayment.

I would strongly encourage you to consider why you are filing bankruptcy, and re-evaluate why you are trying to reaffirm these unsecured debts. There is little that would stop you from making payments after discharge (though though account would likely remain as reported as "included in bankruptcy"). By reaffirming you also give yourself less wiggle room in case something happened after bankruptcy. If you were to get large medical bills or lose your job a few months after discharge, you would still be responsible for the debts you reaffirmed.

Aside from all that, I wonder how a judge and other creditors will react to selectively reaffirming unsecured debt. I don't know enough to speak to that.

[kberly69]

I would add if you don't have it already, get the NOLO book on Chapter 7. It is, in my opinion, a necessity when filing pro se and walks you through form completion. That book, coupled with asking questions on this forum got me through the process and garnered praise from the trustee for my paperwork. Got my discharge last week!

[AmBee47]

Wow, what a stupendously helpful and thoughtful reply, leonel9! Thank you enormously for sharing your knowledge and clear thinking! This forum is a rich resource indeed.

Your knowledge and clarity of thought has improved my thinking a great deal. I shall give up any notion of retaining any creditor or account.

Thanks again.

[AmBee47]

I would add if you don't have it already, get the NOLO book on Chapter 7. It is, in my opinion, a necessity when filing pro se and walks you through form completion. That book, coupled with asking questions on this forum got me through the process and garnered praise from the trustee for my paperwork. Got my discharge last week!

Congrats, kberly69! I already own that book, but in my opinion, although it provides helpful general guidance which I could not have done without, it has not been all that helpful when it comes to specifics and details. Part of the problem is that I purchased it as an eBook and the example forms (as jpegs) have much too little resolution for me to read, even magnified. But another problem is that some forms and form details are either poorly covered or not covered at all.

But as you say, that's where this exceptional forum comes in!

Thanks!

[kberly69]

Yes! Technology is great but sometimes paper is the way to go. I had bought the book thinking I was going to file a year or so ago and decided to wait. In the meantime, the forms changed so there was an entirely new Chapter 6. Since they give you the address for updates, I downloaded the new one. I ended up printing it because I just needed to see it in "real life" and be able to flip through quickly.
I can say for most issues I had, the problem was often me overthinking things. I'd read something, overprocess it, and then come back in a day or so and re-read it with more clarity. The one issue I really thought needed more info about was cell phones/service. I couldn't decide where to put them. Like many of us, I have a contract for the service and am paying for the phone itself monthly on the same bill. Is it a contract for service (to go on Schedule G) or a secured loan (Schedule D)? I went with G after A LOT of mulling it over and the little research I could find. Maybe I was supposed to put something on both schedules, but the Trustee was very complimentary about my paperwork so I guess it's all good. It was surprising to me that this wasn't covered in the book, nor did it seem to be easy to find elsewhere.