Blasted by Trustee at Meeting of Creditors

[tigergem]

No, I think they generally wonder how an uneducated (juris prudence) pro se can navigate the system. A compliment would have been, simply, great job!

Oh. Like when Counsel for the Trustee told me I submitted a "well written motion" -- that was a compliment? lol! I reckon it must have been good, because I am still wiping the slime off from filing it. Ew. Like maybe some real attorneys might have to do every day? Ew!

It was the previous conversation he asked me my legal background lol. I didn't feel like I was being sized up though. Not really. It felt like a compliment. Anyway, I took it as one.

[justbroke]

In some circumstances, I think it is a compliment. In others, I have definitely felt that they were sizing me up. Not the Trustee or the Trustee's office, but the creditor attorneys!

[MSbklawyer]

What trustee's are looking for when they ask pro se filers about their legal background is these 'filing services' or 'typing services', as they call themselves, that are in fact people without law degrees engaging in an unauthorized practice of law. They're springing up everywhere and the UST's office is trying to shut them down.

Not many people without a legal background can successfully file a pro se 13 -- nor would even know where to begin. There are some, to be sure; J.B. and Tigergem are proof of this. But in 99 out of 100 cases, a person with no legal background who files a pro se 13 done even half right, is receiving legal advice from a non-lawyer. The trustee here asks them about the exemption statutes: "Why did you chose this exemption statute for your car? Why did you chose state exemptions over federal exemptions?" If they have in fact prepared the bankruptcy petition themselves, they should be able to answer questions like that. Usually, it becomes very clear very quickly that they have no idea what he's talking about and that they're being given legal advice by a non-lawyer.

[MSbklawyer]

Just like politicians. They put on a good public display of professionalism, but are all bedfellows.

Sorry but lets face most of them are all in cahoots with each other, then they act like their on your side. Here a question if attorneys make more with a chap7 why are they always pushing a chap13?

Sorry, but the attny bashing here is not called for. Yes there are a few bad apples that make it seem we are all bad, but those bad apples are not the norm. Des.

C'mon Des, the gig's up. We're busted. No use pretending anymore. All those wild parties thrown by the trustees with that Chapter 13 money . . . strippers, cocaine, finest booze somebody else's money could buy . . . well, it was fun while it lasted. Time for us to move on to bigger and better scams.

[keepsmiling]

C'mon Des, the gig's up. We're busted. No use pretending anymore. All those wild parties thrown by the trustees with that Chapter 13 money . . . strippers, cocaine, finest booze somebody else's money could buy . . . well, it was fun while it lasted. Time for us to move on to bigger and better scams.

Oh dear. Now you just know some idiot is going to take you seriously and quote you somewhere...

[justbroke]

To MSbklawyer's earlier point, on finding who is really writing the petition, my Chapter 7 Trustee actually had the 2 pro se people in the room complete a form asking if they had help or used a doc-prep company.

The Trustees are REALLY interested in cracking down on these people. There is at least one doc "preparer" who was censured and sanctioned by the court for providing legal advice. Legal advice can be as simple as, use 11 USC 522(..) to exempt your automobile. This is why I don't give people advice on which exemption to claim. I might point them to the right place to look and "read" and understand the exemption, but I don't give out exemptions for this reason.

Besides, I would hate to give poor advice and a person loses a piece of property because they chose the wrong exemption scheme or exemption.

[AngelinaCat]

Besides, I would hate to give poor advice and a person loses a piece of property because they chose the wrong exemption scheme or exemption.

When I was a software instructor at CompUSA many moons ago, one of the software packages we taught, was Quicken. Invariably, someone would ask me for a recommendation as to what to do with their stocks and bonds....

[justbroke]

I love it Mrs Cat! I would tell them, in a safe deposit box if they are bearer certificates. Just to drive them crazy, of course.

[despritfreya]

C'mon Des, the gig's up. We're busted. No use pretending anymore. All those wild parties thrown by the trustees with that Chapter 13 money . . . strippers, cocaine, finest booze somebody else's money could buy . . . well, it was fun while it lasted. Time for us to move on to bigger and better scams.

Ya had to know I would respond to this. . . . Who needs a Trustee to have such wild fun. . . What do you really think happens to all that money the clients use to pay "legal fees".

Des.

[Pandora]

LOL @ MSBK and Des..

damned lawyers...

[karm43]

Didn't mean all attorneys, didn't mean to offend the honest ones out there. But its just strange how this works for instance people want to include 160.00 in piano lessons or private schools and that is ok in the plan sometimes, where for someone else they give them a hard time over everything. then there people who make way too much that get small payments get to keep their income tax and others that don't. I knew I was a chap 13 expected that, then there the people that got a chap 7 and got in debt all over wow i am never gonna be in debt again! Ya i am not happy but I will do what I need to, need to live again. Like I said sorry for the honest attorneys out there, but the rest that are not honest shame on you!

[karm43]

Oh I could use a party with some coke and drinks too! LOL

[karm43]

Oh is the party free? Cause I'm in a chap 13 not a 7

[justbroke]

Didn't mean all attorneys, didn't mean to offend the honest ones out there. But its just strange how this works for instance people want to include 160.00 in piano lessons or private schools and that is ok in the plan sometimes, where for someone else they give them a hard time over everything.

Yes, it depends on the Trustee in totality of circumstances. First, you expenses do not go in the plan. They could be enumerated on Schedule J, where they belong, but they are never in the Plan. The Plan just spells out the treatment of creditors. I would also point out that prior to the Ransom decision, many districts went by what's on the Means Test so it didn't matter what you had on Schedule J at all.

Additionally, plans which pay over 70% typically get less scrutiny and are more flexible. The code even provides for more leniency with 70%+ plans.

then there people who make way too much that get small payments get to keep their income tax and others that don't. I knew I was a chap 13 expected that, then there the people that got a chap 7 and got in debt all over wow i am never gonna be in debt again! Ya i am not happy but I will do what I need to, need to live again. Like I said sorry for the honest attorneys out there, but the rest that are not honest shame on you!

What do you mean make too much? There is no making too much in a Chapter 13. As for whether you get to keep any overpayment of tax is also based on how your Means Test is calculated. Most attorneys will factor in your average refund when calculating your Means Test income and for your Schedule J income. That means, it's already factored. Some districts force the attorneys to do that, so since it's already factored, the Trustees don't look for a refund. And, some districts require ALL refunds period (like mine). You can petition to keep some of the refund, but all refunds are to be given to the Trustee, unless you're in a 100% plan.

For the reason above and since Chapter 13s are really complex, you can't judge and compare one Chapter 13 case to another so simplistically... especially across Districts (even in the same State!). This is also why I highly discourage those that seek to do a Chapter 13 pro se. Yes, it can be done and there are at least two of us here on BKforum that made it through confirmation -- which is almost never done by pro se filers in such cases.

The point of my post is just to make sure that people understand just how complex a Chapter 13 is, how different precedences across Districts matter, and how budgets are developed based on the Means Test and/or Schedule I/J.

[MSbklawyer]

Didn't mean all attorneys, didn't mean to offend the honest ones out there. But its just strange how this works for instance people want to include 160.00 in piano lessons or private schools and that is ok in the plan sometimes, where for someone else they give them a hard time over everything. then there people who make way too much that get small payments get to keep their income tax and others that don't. I knew I was a chap 13 expected that, then there the people that got a chap 7 and got in debt all over wow i am never gonna be in debt again! Ya i am not happy but I will do what I need to, need to live again. Like I said sorry for the honest attorneys out there, but the rest that are not honest shame on you!

Too late. Still appreciated, but much much too late. Des and I were so stricken with guilt and remorse by what you and others pointed out about us having been in cahoots with the trustees and other lawyers and not looking out for our clients' best interests all these years, that we decided to turn over a new leaf and start earning our money honestly. We have therefore thrown in with a gang of Somali sailers whose function it is to assist distressed vessels in the Indian Ocean. As we are informed by our shipmates, the owners of these vessels are so greatful for our assistance that they often times pay hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions of dollars when we return the ship and crew to dry land.

Our first day at sea was today. No distressed vessels spotted as yet. Des is a little green around the gills from the boat rolling and has to frequent the side of the boat. But we're in good spirits and are both feeling better about now earning our money honsetly.

Will update as often as access to the satellite phone allows.