Motion

[HHM]

There is a bit of hyperbole in my statement, but the number is mostly accurate. However, "fail" is somewhat a relative term. Most chapter 13's either end up converted to chap 7 (as I suspect this 73 y/o will eventually be) or dismissed. Very few chapter 13's actually make it to a chapter 13 discharge.

[magic13]

Wow,if that is true then people should be very afraid to file a chapter 13. Why would anyone file anything that the chance of success is only 5%. According to you , everyone that is successful is posting about it on this forum because I am seeing a lot of success stories on this forum. You also stated that people file when they have no business filing, so in your opinion, who SHOULD be filing for a 13 if the success rate is only 5% or so

[HHM]

I don't think "afraid" is the right word, but realistic. Many people don't have a choice, so it is not like there is a better option for many. When the law changed to make chapter 13's mandatory 60 months, too much changes in a 5 year time frame. Even those with the best chance of success have something happen.

Chapter 13 is still the MOST POWERFUL debt relief tool available. I say that because you can do more than you can in chapter 7 to make a persons life better off. But it is a two way street, the debtor needs to have spending discipline and realistic expectations about what can be accomplished and what should be accomplished. As to the 73 y/o referenced in this thread...I suspect (although granted, no facts have been provided) she is making an "emotional" decision to save the house but the house is truly un-affordable and in a years time, the case will be facing either dismissal or conversion to a chapter 13 (I hope I am wrong), but I don't know too many 73 y/o women that have their income INCREASE over years, which is what usually needs to happen to get to chapter 13 discharge. So, I suspect this is one of those knee jerk, save the house plan, that will really only buy some time, waste money, and she will lose the house in a year or 2 anyway.

[magic13]

LadyInTheRed





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My undertanding is that only about 1/3 of Chap 13 plans are completed. The other 2/3 includes conversions to Chap 7 and dismissals. I think a lot of articles turn this around to say that 2/3 of Chap 13 plans fail which is not really the same thing as not being completed. Remember many articles you read about BK are put out by creditors and debt management companies who would like to scare you out of filing BK.

As Flamingo points out, statistics of completion or failure aren't very meaningful to your individual situation.


I was just concerned about your statement that "well over 90% of chapter 13's fail, when further research on this site says otherwise, who is really correct

[LadyInTheRed]

I don't remember where exactly I found the information about 1/3 of plans being completed. But, I was talking about completed plans which is not the same thing as obtaining a Chap 13 discharge. Perhaps HHM is saying that only 10% of Chap 13's filed recieve a Chap 13 discharge. I wouldn't be suprised if that were the case. Or maybe HHM found a different source for the statistics than I did.

If it seems the rate of successful Chap 13s by BKforum members is higher than the norm, it may be because BKforum members were better educated about their options before going into the Chap 13 and then have the support of other members to get through the rough spots. But, remember, we also hear about a lot of conversions from 13 to 7.

I think the most important thing about my post quoted above is "statistics of completion or failure aren't very meaningful to your individual situation." This is apparently this woman's 4th pro se Chap 13 after the first 3 were dismissed. Her Chap 13 success rate is 0% so far. magic13, if you have stable income, are not trying to keep assets you can't afford, get a realistic plan confirmed and are willing to live within your budget, you have nothing to worry about. That would change if you have a decrease in income during your plan in which case you could either modify your plan or convert to a Chap 7. Ignore the statistics and focus on doing what you can to make YOUR Chap 13 successful.

I share HHM's concerns about a 73 year old filing a Chap 13, especially prose. I agree that if somebody truely can't afford to pay an attorney they probably don't belong in a Chap 13. The OP said in another post that the woman did file to save her home. She'd probably be better off letting the home go.

[justbroke]

The numbers vary by District and there is no hard and fast rule. However, when it comes to Pro Se Chapter 13s... hands down the numbers show a 90% failure rate (period). I am one of only several who have successfully made it through confirmation, but my case would be considered a failure; I converted to Chapter 7.

Other Chapter 13 cases fail because the debtor refuses of can't budget. Worst, for pro se Chapter 13 debtors, miscalculating the means test and Schedule I/J can lead to a budget (payment) that will cause failure in no time (2 years or less).

So, as a pro se Chapter 13 debtor... I would never want a 73 y/o person trying to save property, file Chapter 13 [I]pro se/I].

[Pandora]

She is trying to save her house and just for your information myself and others are trying to help her,
Thanks for all your help.

Be VERY CAREFUL playing attorney when you aren't....bad things can happen.... word of caution. Its one thing to represent your own case and file pro-se, however it's an entirely different thing to work someone ELSE'S case

[LadyInTheRed]

...it's an entirely different thing to work someone ELSE'S case

Yes. It's called the unauthorized practice of law.

[Pandora]

Yes. It's called the unauthorized practice of law.

Ya mean I have to throw away my beanie that says "Lawyer" on it? ... Dayyyummm... LOL