Will my kids have to quit their activities?

[Pandora]

But, really I don't. It can't be used as disposable income when it comes to how I manage it. It has to be used as expenses for the children. Which is why you have to report it and show that you used it for them or saved it in their names. In fact, if I save too much, I can get in trouble because it's not being used as their support. So, if it's included in a debt repayment plan...it's really not being used for their support. Especially, since the house that we foreclosed on was foreclosed on BEFORE they started receiving benefits. So, they never lived in that house.

Yes, you do. It is money they are receiving because YOU are disabled - the money is in your care/trust since you are required by law to be Custodian on their accounts since they are minors. You're confusing how SSD works - just because it comes to your children does not mean it's "theirs"; its yours to use FOR their care. Care consists of food, clothing, house payments, medical needs, etc.

I know how it works, I've been disabled for 14 years now - been there, done that. Yep, you're right, you can get in "trouble" so to speak if you save the money and it can be taken from you / your children if you save it. it's supposed to be used for their care on a monthly basis. You can save some of it, but as you know you fill out the yearly inquiry forms SSD sends on behalf of the monies your kids receive and you must state what amount / percentage is used for their care (i.e., housing, food, medical, etc).

It just appears (IMO from reading all your posts re: SSD) with all you've been told by those on here that are both lawyers and those that actually are in / have been in your exact situation, that you just dont want to have a high payback or be pushed into a Ch. 13 due to your SSD/children's SSD. As noted previously, SSD cannot be included in the means test but it can and will count on the schedules, irregardless that you dont think it should. It's a very fine line and the law allows for loop holes unfortunately.

If you hired counsel to represent you, then you must trust that they know what they're doing and review your expenses / allowances very carefully to try to get your DMI down as much as possible. While its commendable that you want to fight the law re: SSD, in all actuality you're not really fighting it because its not being used per BK law as you think (i.e., means test) so it will be an uphill battle for you.

if you dont want to include that money because you'll be in a 100% payback plan for 5 years due to BK laws, then dont file BK and try to work with your creditors directly. Really those are your only options at this point in time because in the end, the SSD is going to count.

Good luck to you.

[mom2crazies]

Well, I get your point, but I use it for their well being (which is college, a small amount of savings, school needs, clothing and their activities). Yes, my kids activities are not the cheapest, but with both of them having ADHD, they are very good for them. Plus, they are good for me when I have bad days and can't be the mother that I should be. I guess I just feel that it's weird for me to use it to help with the electric bill because I feel like those types of things are our responsibilities even without the disability.

The problem with lawyers here, I am realizing, is that none of them are really that knowledgeable on the subject and they are jaded because of the "creditor friendly" court system here. I am not sure if they just feel it's a losing battle, or what. but, it's very frustrating. I'm getting really nervous about what will happen, which isn't good for my health.

I get both sides of the issue on the SSD, but I think the laws support the exclusion and it's only the form that doesn't. It's still ridiculous that it is not defined and is left up to interpretation.

I don't think people are understanding my posts. Really, I am just trying to gather all of the information for me, personally so that I am educated on what I am entitled to, what I should fight for and what I should give in to. Most of the time, I am writing them while I am processing information and so they may seem silly, but I just don't trust anyone with my future, including an attorney. I would do it myself if I thought the court system would take me seriously. I know it's part of my mental illness to tend to be like this, but it's the only thing that helps me when I am stressing out.

If I knew anyone in real life that had filed bankruptcy (appropriately, I'm not talking about that friend who I think is not telling me the full story), I would go to them. Unfortunately, I'm the only dummy that bought a house not realizing that I would eventually have to leave my job for health issues.

You know that as a disabled person that the SSD is very important to help pay for your medical costs and that is my main concern. I only have the medicare that covers hospital. It doesn't cover a lot of therapies that are expensive and generally not covered by my other insurance, as well. Because, I am filing bankruptcy, I am worried that the hospitals and doctors will no longer accept payment plans in the future and it's 1,500 out of pocket that I need to have available, not including copays, which already cost me $100 plus per month. So, if I don't have that cushion, I may not be able to get the medical help I need and get far worse than I am right now (where I still can't afford some of the medical needs).

I'm not trying to get out of paying, I'm really not. In fact, I would just file the 13, if I knew that it wouldn't be as messy as it seems to be for everyone. I just want to make sure that I am able to get my medical needs taken care of. I don't know about you, but part of the reason our home was foreclosed on was my medical condition (I didn't get disability until it was too late, because I was too proud to apply for it.). Not having anything to deal with emergencies is really scary for me, because I have been doing it for so long. I know this doesn't have anything to do with it, but while I am venting, I find it ridiculous that people can still contribute up to 15% for charity, but they won't give people a 5-10% cushion to save, which is what all experts recommend? It's not like they couldn't double check that people are saving.

I don't know. I seem to be annoying quite a bit of people on these boards without meaning to. Maybe, I shouldn't post anymore?

[mom2crazies]

I also wanted to note that working with this creditor is not an option. We tried to settle, but unless we filed bankruptcy, we would have had to come up with $53,000 in 30 days. This is our second mortgage (and that is an entirely different situation and proves that they don't give a damn about HAMP and are getting around it left and right)

It's not as if I don't understand the law, but what I am trying to do is find out options as in the argument. If they can use loop holes, can't I still offer an argument based on common sense? I am not deluded enough as to think I could win against the courts, but at least my arguments will be listed in the judges ruling, MAYBE offering help to someone in the future. Or, at least informing future attorneys what they could and could not argue on.

I still contend that if they use the SSD in the repayment plan, they are using it for our debt (mostly my husbands, he was listed on the home). NOT living expenses for the children, because the repayment plan would have to include that money in order to be possible, it's not possible on my husbands income. However, I was able to come up with possible proposals that would split the responsibilities between the SSD and the payback that I think are what would be fair in a chapter 13 case.

[Peeps]

I don't know. I seem to be annoying quite a bit of people on these boards without meaning to. Maybe, I shouldn't post anymore?

I don't think your posts seem annoying. It's easy to tip out of balance when there are so many unknowns swirling around, especially when those unknowns trigger our most basic fears around survival.

You're getting some very frank feedback from people who have experiences & knowledge that they're willing to share. That's the whole point of the forum... it's not always candy-coated but at least you'll get the insight you're looking for. And now the posts will be preserved for people who have similar questions in the future. It's all good. Best of luck to you.

[momofthree]

You will be allowed to allocate money towards your medical expenses. You'll take your yearly average and divide that by 12 to come with your monthly medical expense. Medical expenses are one of the few expenses that can go over and above the IRS standard without the trustee fighting you on it (aside from requesting documentation). The problem you may come up against is if you haven't been getting the treatment you need due to lack of funds, then you might have trouble proving it as an expense, but if you have been getting the treatment and have the documentation of the expense, it will not be an issue.

Really, a ch.13 is not the end of the world. It is not the horrific experience you seem to think it's going to be. You will be able to live very comfortably, and although you will not be allowed a "savings" line item expense, you will be able to save during your plan. In fact, it is expected that you will save. Let me explain. You will be allowed to allocate expense categories that do not come up each month. For example, clothing, medical expenses, car maintenance, home maintenance, etc. These expenses only come up every few months or even once a year or two years. You will take that money each month and save it for when the expense arises. Your needs WILL be taken care of if you follow your budget correctly. And other items, like groceries can be cut back on. Just because you put down $800/mo on groceries & household supplies doesn't mean you have to spend that much. If you can get by on $400/mo, then you get to save the extra $400 a month. We weren't even able to claim IRS standards on our budget (due to lack of income we could only afford about 1/3 of the IRS allowances), but have still been able to save over $3000 in the year since we've filed, and we've lived comfortably in the meantime.

Chapter 13 is NOT the end of the world. It really isn't. In fact, most of us that file find that life after 13 is much easier than life before filing.

[Pandora]

mom2crazies,

I understand what you're saying and feeling - and you arent being a bother to anyone; we've all been where you are - some with disability, others with high percent payback, and most of us with children - so we all understand the frustration and worry you're experiencing. That's what makes this community so unique - we all can add a little bit of experience to the pot, thereby helping others that may be facing the exact situation.

As Momofthree pointed out - Chapter 13 isnt a death sentence and its not meant to be punishing; you will be allowed to deduct medical expenses - you just have to prove you incur excessive medical monthly above the IRS standard. This will require statements from your insurance company, pharmacy, etc - anything that can prove you require XX above the IRS standard.

As to: "I still contend that if they use the SSD in the repayment plan, they are using it for our debt (mostly my husbands, he was listed on the home). NOT living expenses for the children, because the repayment plan would have to include that money in order to be possible, it's not possible on my husbands income. "

Again, totally understand what you're saying, but the unfortunate reality is that the money your children receive for SSD is to be used for their care, which means housing, utilities, food, clothing, medical, school, diapers, baby food, etc etc etc - anything and everything that pertains to your children. College and activities are not "care" - they're not basic necessities in the eyes of the courts; they're "wants". The issue is that you're viewing it as your children receive SSD and thats not the case - they receive it because you are disabled, hence it is to help you care for their needs. When you applied for SSD, you had to apply 3 times; once for you and once for each of your children - your benefits and their benefit on your behalf are different cases, which is why your disability lawyer received up to 25% per case. As to what you feel is a "necessity", that doesnt mean SSD or the courts feel that way, which is why on the yearly form you can have all benefits to your children cut if you save the money vs. using it. I believe its okay to save between 25-35% for them, but for the most part you must be using that money towards their needs, not their wants.

The means test is merely to see if there is abuse present when filing BK; its not the sole determining factor on whether you get to file Ch. 7 or Ch. 13 - its just a part of the equation. Which is why the Schedules come into play so much and why they are sometimes the deciding factor as your DMI comes into play on these forms.

"However, I was able to come up with possible proposals that would split the responsibilities between the SSD and the payback that I think are what would be fair in a chapter 13 case."

Unfortunately, for those that file BK, we dont get to say what's "fair" and how the money goes - wish it were that way, but its not - we borrowed the money, so it's all about the creditors in the long run. The "fair" thing in a Ch. 13 is that you are no longer accruing interest or penalties - and if not in a 100% payback, then whatever is left gets wiped out once you complete your plan.

Hang in there, it will get better - just do what you can to bring your DMI down to as low as possible on your Schedules. Ensure you take all expenses you're allowed and account for those that are over the IRS standards accordingly.

[mom2crazies]

Thank you for the kind words, Pandora.

I don't want people to think that I am mad because I want to have more disposable income, I am just terrified of being in the same situation that we were in for years. Which was no money for savings.

I was able to get us to about negative $300 leftover - with plenty of supporting information: average medical costs during the last 3 years, food allergies and weight problems with DD to explain our food bill, higher fuel and maintence costs for our older cars (which is supported by a website that estimates average maintenance on vehicles per month), and a possible letter from my physician explaining the high medical costs as well as information supporting the need for activities for our DD who is ADHD.

[Pandora]

Hiya mom2crazies...

NP - thats what we're all here for . I know its hard, but we all started where you are at some point in time!

Hmm... well...it's worth a shot going for what you're asking, but just remember to keep an open mind and control if it all gets shot down by your trustee. I think you stated previously your lawyer had you at $1500 DMI (if I'm incorrect, my apologies) so for you to suddenly go from $1500 to a -$300 is going to be hard to justify, especially since you're over median.

I just read your other post where you brought your household down to 2 (just you and your husband) and came up with several different payment plans; how are you planning on excluding your children from your household? As far as a payment plan, we (those of us filing BK) dont really get to tell the courts "hey look, this is what I want to pay - so..." (ok, you got me chuckling on that one could you imagine the look on the Trustee / judges' faces if a debtor said that? LOL! hey, we can dream right?!) *not laughing at you, just to make the distinction and be clear*

let us know how it works out for ya once you discuss it all with your attorney - stranger things have happened!

ETA: it's nearly impossible to have a savings and be bankrupt at the same time. I'd say its more of an "emergency fund" for sudden issues that may crop up. Dont get me wrong, many of us DO get to put money aside for savings that are in a Ch. 13 plan, however it comes out of other areas that we dont spend all the funds for monthly. So, it is doable.

[mom2crazies]

Oh, No. I just calculated the 1,500 based on strict IRS exemptions. Not calculating any additional exemptions at all. I know my attorney had told me early in the process that he was close to getting us exempted out. I think he was able to get us close, or was able to get us in a negative payback position, and that was before I remembered that I have SS taxes taken out of my check and that he was not deducting those.

My calculations were for following the two person exemption amounts is based on their (likely) decision of "Totality of circumstance" and counting the SS in the ability to repay. Which they can do (grumbles), but that the SS would still be exempt in the actual repayment as the laws and exemptions provide for. So, I figure that we can say that SS covers only 1/2 their expenses and all of mine (except for the insurance since he pays that and it's out of his check) and that DH provides for the other 1/2 of their costs with his salary. I just went with a 2 person household because we have 2 kids and I just figured 1/2 each to make one person. It's good for us because that income is still exempt, it's good for them because we are giving into the fact that he does not provide for all of our living (and not much of mine at all) and that he should not receive exemptions based on all 4 of us. It makes logical sense in my head, but I don't know if it really is logical.

I will just give my attorney the numbers and he can "work the magic" of convincing the trustee or judge. I'm going to have to tape my mouth shut at the 341 or any other court hearings

Yes, an Emergency Fund is exactly what I am talking about! That's all I care about. I just want to be able to fix our 11 year old cars, or pay for our portion of a hospital bill, instead of hoping the hospital will accept a payment plan.

[momofthree]

Since you do have disposable income, I strongly STRONGLY suggest buying at least 1 newer car (2 new cars would be okay too) to get you through your ch.13. The car payment will simply serve to lower your DMI further and may even help you get your ch.7.

[mom2crazies]

It see where it would make sense to do that, but we've made a commitment to never finance anything again. No matter what. I refuse to owe anyone money ever again. Plus, any financing we would get right now would have a totally ridiculous interest rate.