Household of 5, but atty says only household of 3

[djknjk18]

We have 19 year old twins, full time college students who live at home and work part-time. Their income is minimal and is used for their gas expenses and entertainment. We provide them a home, food, health care, etc. We were told that because they each have a part-time job that we could not claim them as a dependent. This caused our income to be too high (since they are saying we only have 3 instead of 5 in our household) and now we must enter into a 5-year plan instead of the 3. Is this right? I don't understand the logic behind this...

[sheilaE]

Wow, I'm interested in the answer as well. We have 3 children, one is in college and just started working p/t for the reason of needing to pay for her books, school supplies and classes being we are no longer able to afford to help her out. She lives with us and so we still take care of her as far as food, clothing and gas goes.

[dneil]

I am guessing because of their age and the fact that they earn income, the courts see this as your choice to provide whatever care you give them. This is only a guess. The reason I say this is because when I filled out forms for the attorney he asked me all of my income and who lived in the house etc. I listed everyone and put down that my son would be receiving SSI and child support would be stopping. He called me and asked me if my son was disabled and completely dependent on me. And I said yes. That he is unable to work because of his disability and that I would be his representative per Social Security Office decision. He then said, "well that changes things quite a bit and that he would (even though over the age of 18) be considered an adult dependent because he is disabled and cleared for disability.

So, I am guessing that even though your children live in your home and are cared for by you, they don't count as dependents because they are able to work and provide for themselves. But that is just a guess. Good Luck with everything.

[momofthree]

I'm wondering if you'd be able to include them as household members if you also included their income? Not sure that is even possible, but if their income is that minimal, it may be a way to make it work....Worth asking your attorney though...

[olivies]

Well, I found this link:

http://www.sbli-inc.org/archive/2008/documents/WILLIAMSON%20SBLI%20Means%20Test%2008%20by%20Judge%20Williamson%20re%20SBLI.pdf

Census Bureau Approach - plain language of the statute using actual size of household (heads on beads, i.e. how many people actually live at the house).
i. In re Ellringer, 370 B.R. 905 (Bankr. D. Minn. 2007) (holding that the calculation of median family income is taken from the Census Bureau; “[t]hus, the census bureau provides the most appropriate definition of “household” for use in the means test because it ensures
that a household in the means test will have the same number of members as the calculation of the median family income. The Census Bureau defines
2
II.
Means Test A. Current 1. 2. 3. 4.
5.
Application. Monthly Income :
Average Monthly Gross Income of debtor and filing spouse
Income includes nontaxable income
Excludes social security payments
Includes amounts paid by third persons on regularly basis to the household expenses
Average for preceding 6 calendar months
c.
‘household’ as ‘all of the people, related or unrelated, who occupy a housing unit.’”).

[BobMango]

We have 19 year old twins, full time college students who live at home and work part-time. Their income is minimal and is used for their gas expenses and entertainment. We provide them a home, food, health care, etc. We were told that because they each have a part-time job that we could not claim them as a dependent. This caused our income to be too high (since they are saying we only have 3 instead of 5 in our household) and now we must enter into a 5-year plan instead of the 3. Is this right? I don't understand the logic behind this...

This has to be the stupidest thing I've heard attributed to an attorney lately. Does you wife work? Does that mean you can't include her in your household? Sounds to me like your attorney doesn't want a fight and is looking to take the easy way. When I filed, my wife and oldest daughter lived apart from me and my other two children. (We relocated and my wife and daughter stayed in our old home to finish her last year in high school.) We were allowed to use a family size of 5, and include expenses for maintaining two households as well. If you are claiming them as dependents and they are living with you I don't see how they can't be included in your household.

[Flamingo]

If you provide more than 1/2 of your twin's support and they live with you more than six months out of the year, under IRS standards you can claim them as dependents. I would suggest consulting with another attorney.

[djknjk18]

Thanks for the comments. I agree it just doesn't seem right. I wonder if we would be better off if our twins quit their minimum wage part time jobs? I hope it isn't a matter of our attorney wanting to avoid a fight. Seems to me if they are full tim college students living at home that they would be considered dependents. Also seems that whatever federal requirements are for dependents when filing taxes would be the same in this situation.

[tobee43]

Thanks for the comments. I agree it just doesn't seem right. I wonder if we would be better off if our twins quit their minimum wage part time jobs? I hope it isn't a matter of our attorney wanting to avoid a fight. Seems to me if they are full tim college students living at home that they would be considered dependents. Also seems that whatever federal requirements are for dependents when filing taxes would be the same in this situation.

i'm absolutely 100% behind what flamingo says here.....there is no way that should be happening when your twins are in college...shoot both are kids were NOT even living home most of the year but we still claim them tax wise and although BOTH even worked full time...they filed separate taxes but we still claimed them as dependents...

(actually...i don't even think they ever are NOT dependents!!)........go straight to another atty.....

[Nicollette]

My daughter is 19, a full-time student, and has a part-time job. I was able to include her as a dependent because I still provide health care insurance for her, and most of her support comes from me even though she has a part time job. Her job pays for her gas, to and from school.

[djknjk18]

Nicollette, we are doing all the things you listed. I wonder if the law could be different because of the difference in our filing dates or due to the dates in our filing? Or maybe my attorney is not as good as yours.

[tobee43]

i don't think the "tax" laws or exempt laws really vary THAT much....however, atty's do...hate to say...

[987654]

I claimed my 19 year old without a question from either my trustee or attorney. He wasn't working at the time but was a full time college student, and this was not an issue.

Similarily, the couple before me at my 341 were trying to claim their 19 year old daughter WHO DID NOT LIVE WITH THEM, since they helped pay her rent and other expenses while she went to school. The daughter also had a part time job. There was some discussion about whether they could claim her, and whether her income should be counted, etc., but in the end the Trustee allowed it as the couple could document the ongoing expense of helping her with housing costs/insurance/etc.

So given both these cases I don't see why you would have issues. If your twin's money is going to their own expenses, and you're not trying to claim those same expenses, then it should be fine...

[tobee43]

I claimed my 19 year old without a question from either my trustee or attorney. He wasn't working at the time but was a full time college student, and this was not an issue.

Similarily, the couple before me at my 341 were trying to claim their 19 year old daughter WHO DID NOT LIVE WITH THEM, since they helped pay her rent and other expenses while she went to school. The daughter also had a part time job. There was some discussion about whether they could claim her, and whether her income should be counted, etc., but in the end the Trustee allowed it as the couple could document the ongoing expense of helping her with housing costs/insurance/etc.

So given both these cases I don't see why you would have issues. If your twin's money is going to their own expenses, and you're not trying to claim those same expenses, then it should be fine...

and really to go one step further with 98765's point here...then if that's the case that you MUST claim their income then one would most assuredly think one can claim ALL expenses .....everything affiliated monetarily with them....one would think.