Teacher - Problem with my attorney and summer pay plan and other issues. Wisconsin

[deedee642]

I hope someone can answer these questions. I am a teacher and do not recieve a check for about six weeks in the summer. My district does not offer any service where they will spread the payments out. We have a credit union that offers a "summer pay plan" but really it is just a savings account. I might add it is a savings account that I can access at any time, so summers have always been a struggle for me and a time of anxiety. When I met with my attorney I emphasized over and over that I needed to take $500.00 out of each pay period and put it in a "summer pay plan" or I would have any money for the summer to pay my mortgage, the trustee, food, etc. He kept making ridiculous statements like, "well, I'm prorating your annual salary over 12 months so you really make more money." It was ridiculous. He has me at 100% pay back. I am having to pay the trustee almost $1900 a month. After paying my mortgage, taxes, homeowners, etc. I am left with $37.00. Then, when the summer months come around, I have absolutely no income. I left in tears and took the paper work with me. Has anyone filed pro se and had a line where they actually accounted for a summer pay plan? I want to fire him. Is there any chance I can get any of my money back. I have already given him $800.00. I am devestated. He has not responded to any of my emails where I ask him questions. For example, I don't see where he is including my homeowner fees anywhere on the schedule. Also, the issue of saving for summer. He is so condensending when I ask him any questions. I should have researched things so much better. I now see that the trustees and my attorney will receive over $8,000 in fees. I have the paperwork and all of the schedules, so I am wondering if I could tweek things now and take a breath, do some research and file myself. But I could really use some advise if there are any teachers out there who have successfully included something like this.
Thanks,
Janice

[MelodyAM75]

I would definately look into getting a new lawyer. I left my first lawyer because the paralegal didn't want to be bothered with questions and was very snarky. I just really didn't like the overall vibe of the office I was dealing with. I would contact another lawyer and see if they can help you figure how to get back some of the money you paid to the frist lawyer. You don't want to get stuck with a payment you can't afford or you will end up not being able to keep up with the plan and be back where you started.

By the way, I am a teacher, too. Luckily, in my state they break our yearly salary into 12 payments so we get paid year round. That must be terrible to get no summer pay. I am sorry you are having to deal with all this.

I hope someone can answer these questions. I am a teacher and do not recieve a check for about six weeks in the summer. My district does not offer any service where they will spread the payments out. We have a credit union that offers a "summer pay plan" but really it is just a savings account. I might add it is a savings account that I can access at any time, so summers have always been a struggle for me and a time of anxiety. When I met with my attorney I emphasized over and over that I needed to take $500.00 out of each pay period and put it in a "summer pay plan" or I would have any money for the summer to pay my mortgage, the trustee, food, etc. He kept making ridiculous statements like, "well, I'm prorating your annual salary over 12 months so you really make more money." It was ridiculous. He has me at 100% pay back. I am having to pay the trustee almost $1900 a month. After paying my mortgage, taxes, homeowners, etc. I am left with $37.00. Then, when the summer months come around, I have absolutely no income. I left in tears and took the paper work with me. Has anyone filed pro se and had a line where they actually accounted for a summer pay plan? I want to fire him. Is there any chance I can get any of my money back. I have already given him $800.00. I am devestated. He has not responded to any of my emails where I ask him questions. For example, I don't see where he is including my homeowner fees anywhere on the schedule. Also, the issue of saving for summer. He is so condensending when I ask him any questions. I should have researched things so much better. I now see that the trustees and my attorney will receive over $8,000 in fees. I have the paperwork and all of the schedules, so I am wondering if I could tweek things now and take a breath, do some research and file myself. But I could really use some advise if there are any teachers out there who have successfully included something like this.
Thanks,
Janice

[Pandora]

He kept making ridiculous statements like, "well, I'm prorating your annual salary over 12 months so you really make more money." It was ridiculous. He has me at 100% pay back. I am having to pay the trustee almost $1900 a month. After paying my mortgage, taxes, homeowners, etc. I am left with $37.00. Then, when the summer months come around, I have absolutely no income.

find another attorney...this one sounds extremely incompetent. You might not get back your $800, but in the end, it would be worth $800 to get an attorney that knows what they're doing.

ETA: why are you filing a 13 vs. a 7? Do you qualify for a 7 at all?

[hanginginmd]

Also am a teacher with no summer pay so we are considered a 10 month employee. Our plan was prepared & confirmed by taking our monthly gross & multiplying it by 10 (the months we get paid) and then dividing by 12 (months). While this may not get you all of the money you would normally save each month ($500 I believe you said), it would provide you with more than $37.

[LadyInTheRed]

Just to add to the chorus:

Get another attorney. Even if you can't get any money back, it's worth the money to have an attorney you are comfortable with and who answers your questions. Interview as many as you need to before deciding on the one.

Your income and expenses should be averaged over the year, so you can save for the two months without paychecks. The separate savings account is a good idea.

[deedee642]

I do not qualify for Chapter 7. My current lawyer has me at 100% payback.

[Peeps]

So sorry to hear about your situation - it sounds very stressful and it's unfortunate that communicating with your lawyer seems to be about as effective as talking to a brick wall.

It might not hurt to try a means test with another lawyer. I mean, if your current lawyer can't figure out how to calculate your true annual income, then maybe there's risk he hasn't completely understood if you qualify for a 7. Sometimes you can be over the median income but still qualify for a chapter 7 once your expenses are factored in. Just something to consider. Best of luck to you.

[momindebt]

We both are also in education. Our attorney has us paying payments only while we are being paid (every 2 weeks for 10 months). We will not pay over the summer. He took our income and divided it by 12 months, and so our 12 month income is actually less than our real 10 month income. We can save the difference. This won't be completely enough to cover our budget in the summer but with a part-time job (which he is going to put into our plan), we are going to make it work.

[Pandora]

We both are also in education. Our attorney has us paying payments only while we are being paid (every 2 weeks for 10 months). We will not pay over the summer. He took our income and divided it by 12 months, and so our 12 month income is actually less than our real 10 month income. We can save the difference. This won't be completely enough to cover our budget in the summer but with a part-time job (which he is going to put into our plan), we are going to make it work.

How does your attorney plan to get your Ch. 13 completed if you arent making monthly payments to the trustee? I've never heard of a trustee allowing anyone to "skip months" due to the way their paychecks fall. Its up to you to save the monies to pay all bills - including the trustee - each and every month, on time, every time.

Is this the same attorney that you wrote about before who cut the allowable IRS standards you had listed - or another attorney?

You should not have to get a part time job in order to fund your plan, and if you dont have the job currently - your attorney shouldnt be able to put it in there as a "well they plan on getting a pt job to cover expenses". If you dont have the income now to fund it, you will ultimately fail and the trustee wont approve your plan. Your plan shouldnt be punitive, it should allow you all reasonable and necessary expenses as well as enough to fund your plan payment.

[deedee642]

You are not responding to the Original Poster, rather to someone who responded to the post. However, I am the original poster, and my attorney also said I could do a "summer skip". So, since you are not in the same profession as us and do not understand how our payroll works, perhaps you should not be so judgemental. We would be making monthly payments. As a teacher, I RECEIVE NO INCOME FOR SIX WEEKS IN THE SUMMER, therefore, nobody is getting paid. My attorney made no provision for this dispite my insistance. Ergo, he is no longer my attorney. My district does not provide a summer pay plan, I am responsible for this. When I asked my attorney to allow me to retain my summer pay plan that I currently have with my credit union, he instead considerded this as "disposible income" to go to the trustee, attorney, and creditors. Obviously, you are having as difficult of a time of understanding this as my previously employeed attorney. As teachers, it is very common to have "summer skip" for things like loans. Also, as a teacher I often am working a part time job or two or three to try to earn extra income to make up for no income in the summer. All of this is irrelevant though, because I am so damn tired of trying to break this down to everyone that I have just given up. It really isn't that complicated. However, for some it is.

[lrprn]

It really isn't that complicated. However, for some it is.

deedee, your situation is no different to the bk court than a self-employed consultant who gets paid contract to contract who files a 13. They don't get paid regularly either and can have as many weeks as you do between paychecks. However for consultants it's even worse than your situation because their lag weeks are irregular and not predictable for the entire life of their 13 plan.

Hang with us a bit longer while I try to explain where some of the posters who are geniunely trying to help you are coming from.

Frankly in our experience here with other teachers that have filed Ch 13 (and my husband is a teacher so I can speak with some knowledge here), there's typically no skipping payments during the summers built permanently into a teacher's Ch 13 plan. It is possible that your local court trustee may allow some other arrangement, but that isn't typically what happens.

Your monthly payment is determined by the last six full calendar months of your income before you file, and can be influenced in some local courts by what you are expected to make income-wise after filing as well. What is allowed and what isn't is dependent on the customs of the local court *you* are filing in.

When a filer's income stream is not consistent, the expectation of most local court trustees is that you will take your nine months of teacher income, "average it" out to last over 12 months, and then save the difference during the nine months you are paid to make up for the summer weeks when you aren't. Easy to do? No. But other teachers here have done it and successfully with very careful budgeting.

This is why in your case, timing your filing when you can add in some or all of your summer months with no income into your income calculation could be a really good thing - it could well lower your calculated Ch 13 payment and make saving money during paycheck months to cover non-paycheck months even easier.

You said you fired your attorney. Have you hired another one? You are in a situation where you really need the insight of an excellent bk lawyer who is very familiar with what will be allowed by your local trustee and what will not. Keep in mind that just because the law isn't logical to you doesn't mean that you are right in this situation. If your trustee won't confirm a plan with skipped payments every summer throughout the five years of your plan, then you can think it's unfair all you want. It won't change a thing. The law is the law.

Thanks for listening and I hope what I've shared here was helpful (although I realize it wasn't what you wanted to hear). Hang with us and be patient - everyone here really is trying to help. It can sound judgmental when you're stressed and not hearing what you hoped, but keep an open mind and we'll help you sort things out as best we can.

[deedee642]

LRPRN,
Thanks for responding. He did spread out my annual income over 12 months; however, then with what was left over and should have gone into a summer pay plan he showed as disposable income - all to go to my creditors at a 100% payback! Leaving me with absolutely no money to save for the summer and no income in the summer. He also lowered the deductions that I put down on my budget (which were the IRS allowable). This is why I am so frustrated. So there isn't a line on schedule J where you can actually list something like a "summer pay plan" - just put it out there? I am angry because if you could understand just how much I emphasized this at our consultation and then to have it ignored. People were critisizing me and telling me to go to more consultations. You go to these consultations and these attorneys do not give you specifics - it is always "well I would need to crunch your numbers". I do understand what you are saying about timing. I thought that my timing was good; however I was working three jobs this summer to try to get by, so not so much. I don't know, I am beginning to think I am going crazy. I have been up since 3:30 a.m. I leave for work at 6:30 a.m. All last week, the same thing - up at 3:30 a.m. I have been waiting since Wednesday for my attorney to even answer an email I sent him. I would fire him - if he would ever return a call. I run my numbers and there is just not enough money left over to pay all the bills. He has me paying back 100% at $1800 a month! Part of it is the IRS deductions and the fact that he left off my home owners dues and lowered my groceries and dropped things like I had put money for my classroom expenses and taking classes - he just left that off entirely. I am thinking of just filing pro se. I have already had to do all the work for him and second guess everything he does. I am spending so much time researching everything on my own. I just might be a better advocate for myself than him or another attorney. Plus I can't afford to pay another attorney. I am alredy out $800.00 with him - and the bankruptcy was never even filed because I refused to sign the paperwork and go through with it due to all of the errors. Thanks again for your insight. May I ask what state you are in, if you don't mind.
Janice

[Pandora]

deedee, your situation is no different to the bk court than a self-employed consultant who gets paid contract to contract who files a 13. They don't get paid regularly either and can have as many weeks as you do between paychecks. However for consultants it's even worse than your situation because their lag weeks are irregular and not predictable for the entire life of their 13 plan.

Hang with us a bit longer while I try to explain where some of the posters who are geniunely trying to help you are coming from.

Thanks lrpn - appreciate it.


Deedee642 - again, I'm not being judgmental at all, I dont know where you're getting that from. I understand you're frustrated however please take that frustration out on the correct person - not me.

You are correct in that I was responding to the other poster however, and confused her attorney with yours, so for that, my apologies. However given that poster stated her attorney stated she could "skip payments" for her Ch. 13 plan - as LRPN verified to what I wrote, its very uncommon for a CH. 13 debtor to be able to skip payments like that. Usually its up to the debtor to save the monies if they're on the type of pay schedule you are on.

Hang in there - it does get better

[newbie2]

LRPRN,
Thanks for responding. He did spread out my annual income over 12 months; however, then with what was left over and should have gone into a summer pay plan he showed as disposable income -

Actually, from what you described, it sounds like your attorney did it correctly. Bear with me please while I try to get a handle on what you're saying and how it should all play out for you:

Let's say for example, your gross pay is $24,000 per year. Averaged over a 12 month period would equal $2000 per month. Since you are paid (for example) 9 months out of the year, your gross should be $2666 per month. If your attorney is using the $2000 per month as your income, then you still have the extra $666 per month that isn't in the income schedules to stick aside in to your savings account. The extra $666 per month isn't showing as a separate line item for budgeting purposes, but would instead be up to you to subtract it out each month into savings.

Am I on the right track with this?

[momindebt]

How does your attorney plan to get your Ch. 13 completed if you arent making monthly payments to the trustee? I've never heard of a trustee allowing anyone to "skip months" due to the way their paychecks fall. Its up to you to save the monies to pay all bills - including the trustee - each and every month, on time, every time.

Is this the same attorney that you wrote about before who cut the allowable IRS standards you had listed - or another attorney?

You should not have to get a part time job in order to fund your plan, and if you dont have the job currently - your attorney shouldnt be able to put it in there as a "well they plan on getting a pt job to cover expenses". If you dont have the income now to fund it, you will ultimately fail and the trustee wont approve your plan. Your plan shouldnt be punitive, it should allow you all reasonable and necessary expenses as well as enough to fund your plan payment.

We aren't getting a part-time job to fund our plan. We are getting part-time jobs to have an extra cushion for our children's expenses and just a small savings account for rainy days. This is not the same attorney. We aren't "skipping" a month. We get paid only for 10 months so we are paying "our 12-month budget" in 10 months. Happens all the time with teachers since we aren't paid in the summer.