Paralegal said NO Christmas Shopping

[AngelinaCat]

This thread has run its course, and there is no point in rehashing further.

Thank you

[mrskal]

$600 for two birthday parties AND Christmas gifts really isn't extravagant. Probably not a smart idea when in the position she's in, but still not extravagant.

Now, $600 for one party or just Christmas, that would be extravagant.

Question for you:

Are you this confrontational when people pad their budget to support their $400+ a month smoking addiction?

Here's a bit of friendly advice to you: Get real and accept that not everybody is going to think the way you do. And that not all Trustee's are going to make a big deal about $600 for 3 parties as long as their plan payment is met. Of course, only an attorney in her area would actually know the answer to what the Trustee would consider extravagant.

I dont know, either way I look at it $600 is $600 dollars, whether you call it extravagent or not. I don't know that that is the point. I guess if you have that kind of money laying around, go for it.

[helpmeout]

Why are a few people telling her that $600 is not extravagant - but that they wouldn't personally spend that much themselves? That's NOT good advice people. It IS extravagant when she can't make her $500 student loan payment... that she signed for and agreed to pay back, and went to school with to better herself and her familly. Ya gotta get real or you're just not helping her mentality.

$600 for two birthday parties AND Christmas gifts really isn't extravagant. Probably not a smart idea when in the position she's in, but still not extravagant.

Now, $600 for one party or just Christmas, that would be extravagant.

Question for you:

Are you this confrontational when people pad their budget to support their $400+ a month smoking addiction?

Here's a bit of friendly advice to you: Get real and accept that not everybody is going to think the way you do. And that not all Trustee's are going to make a big deal about $600 for 3 parties as long as their plan payment is met. Of course, only an attorney in her area would actually know the answer to what the Trustee would consider extravagant.

[FishersMike]

The Trustee has not told her $600 for kids gifts is overboard -- it was a Paralegal who told her not to buy Christmas presents this year because of the filing. She also advised she is in her current situation due to medical and not credit card habitual behavior. I find your post and people who have your thinking to be hypocritical because I am SURE that you and everyone else has their own expenses that we can scrutinize -- so unless you plan to give up all your entertainment which could consist of Television, Smoking, Alcohol, Pets, Eating Out, etc. etc. you nor anyone else should be so judgmental. Melody comes to this board to learn how to justify on padding her expenses like everyone does for their own benefit -- whether it be to put pet food and costs in your food expense or whatever. If she is willing to cut down on some of her entitled expenses to be able to save and purchase gifts for her kids birthday and Christmas gifts that is her right. But suggesting she is a failure because this is how she chooses to spend her money is just arrogant and rude. This website is bkforum.com and not therapy.com

[ShooFly]

Actually, she's questioning a PARALEGAL's advice. She's already, per her posts, gotten the advice of two separate lawyers who said it wouldn't be a problem. And I agree with the actual lawyers. It's not a big deal as long as it isn't extravagant. And $600 for two birthdays and Christmas is not extravagant but I probably wouldn't spend that much.

But I do agree that she does have to take a hard look at her finances and compare the mortgage payment to what she would pay in rent. Wanting to keep a house doesn't mean that you can afford to.

Why are a few people telling her that $600 is not extravagant - but that they wouldn't personally spend that much themselves? That's NOT good advice people. It IS extravagant when she can't make her $500 student loan payment... that she signed for and agreed to pay back, and went to school with to better herself and her familly. Ya gotta get real or you're just not helping her mentality.

Sure, she can shop around to different lawyers offices all she wants, but I highly doubt a single one of them will advise her that $600 for kids gifts within a months time is acceptable. And at the price of offering her "friendly support" you're giving her really bad advice.


Have a great day

[helpmeout]

She's questioning her Lawyers advice and I happen to agree with it.

Actually, she's questioning a PARALEGAL's advice. She's already, per her posts, gotten the advice of two separate lawyers who said it wouldn't be a problem. And I agree with the actual lawyers. It's not a big deal as long as it isn't extravagant. And $600 for two birthdays and Christmas is not extravagant but I probably wouldn't spend that much.

But I do agree that she does have to take a hard look at her finances and compare the mortgage payment to what she would pay in rent. Wanting to keep a house doesn't mean that you can afford to.

[Flamingo]

I am really not sure why I am bothering to reply, but I have already said mulitiple times that I made the decision to stop using credits cards a few months ago and they have all been cut up. I am not using credit to buy gifts. I also never said I was spending $600 on just Christmas. My son's birthday is Dec. 1 and my daughter's is January 11 so it all comes together and I was considering the costs of their cake, gifts, etc. The $600 I mentioned included both birthdays and Christmas. I was lucky enough to win a drawing from a free Lazer Tag party for my son (we usually just have parties at our house so that it's free except for a few decorations (using Dollar Tree stuff) and the cake which runs about $25 from Wal-Mart. I can't make a decent looking cake and always have about 15-20 family members come to celebrate with us. Anyway, I am going to stop trying justify making birthdays and Christmas nice for my kids since so many are opposed. I appreciate those who have posted in my defense and really can't understand why others have been so negative about the whole thing. I don't own any jewelry (except for my wedding rings, which were purchased for under $300) and have hand-me down furniture and not a single piece of china (just Wal-Mart dishes). I am not living an extravagant lifestyle. I don't plan to throw away $800-$900 on an apartment when I live in family-freindly neighborhood in a house that will hopefully one day be paid off. Now, that would be stupid to pay rent and have nothing to show for it. I work hard teaching special education students and writing freelance on the side and don't just throw my money away. I don't go to casinos, I don't drink any alcohol, smoke cigerettes and give my husband a hard time when he wants to get ribeyes for supper once per month because I think they cost too much.

And as far as why I ended up here in the first place...well, it wasn't from running up gambling debt of credit card debt...it was from nearly dying of severe pre-eclamsia and giving birth to a 3 1/2 pound baby girl who required an extended hospital stay and heart surgery in 2008. I don't many people who have enough extra income to pay thousands of dollars in medical bils. I didn't get in this mess by buying designer clothes, jewelry or other extravagant things. So, I really wish people would stop telling me how I have caused all this and will be desitute before long...I got by spending $60 dollars in groceries just this week by using coupons and my kroger card....I am going to get control of my finances with bankruptcy relief...and I will be just fine and so will my kids...

Melody- please note you explained none of this in your initial posting and that is why most of those who responded negatively did so. Your initial posting was probably just badly worded by you as to your intentions and came across wrong as to your spending on Xmas gifts for your very young children. There are many folks on here who have gone through all that and are just trying to prepare you or tell you what is going to happen if you continue to worry about spending money on gifts and other non-necessity items. It's not a personal attack - it's just you feel that what you are doing now is correct and explaining your way out of it and hearing from others who have been there and telling you things you don't want to hear. It's all about the experience of going through financial hardships and bankruptcy. Everyone handles it differently and no situation is exactly the same. You initially were told, as another poster mentioned, by the office working on your BK not to buy Christmas presents. There is a reason for that and your post was looking for a way out. You got marvelous informative responses in many cases. As time goes on, you will be able to budget for future gifts as you navigate your Chapter 13 plan and can hopefully post on here how you did that. Things do get better and getting out from those medical bills will be a big help to you...

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks for your concern. Bankruptcy wasn't even in my mind at all until the day I made that first post. This has all happened rather quickly and it has been a shock to my system as I am sure it is to most who find themselves contemplating bankruptcy. I am just trying to maintain some sort of normalcy to my life while dealing with the financial strain of living paycheck to paycheck. I appreciate the well-intentioned advice, but in the end I have to make my own decisions. I am hoping to find some relief when I file Chapter 13 bankruptcy. I estimate our trustee payment will be at least $1000 less than what we were trying to pay creditors every month so I think this will be a move in the right direction for us. As for Christmas, I will do what I can to get my kids what I want them to have and if I can't get them everything I have on their lists, I know they will be O.K. and I know their grandparents on both sides will pick up the slack.

There is noone here that does not want to support another member, except maybe a few trolls here and there. Although it is not what you want to hear, it is all good advice. Melody, you had posted in another thread.

Here is what you posted:
"My husband and I decided next week that we are going to file Chapter 13. We are buried in debt and living paycheck to paycheck. On the 25th I will be 30 days late on my mortgage for the 1st time. Our car payment will be 30 days late on the 30th (if we don't pay it).My question is when should we file? Should we file right away to get the process going or should we wait a month to give ourselves some time to catch up with everything? From what I understand, our first trustee payment will be due about 30 days after our filing date so I am thinking may be should wait a bit, but not really sure. We are late on 2 credit card payments, but not all of them yet. We will be late on all of the in another 3 weeks or so. So, how long do most people wait to file after missing payments?

If that is not a sign that you should not be spending that much on gifts, I dont really know what is. I understand that you are far from foreclsure, but just wait until the fees start adding up from being late, and more interest is tacked on. It gets harder and harder to dig yourself out. Trust me when I say this, I wish I got some of this advice months before I filed, I would not be in a worse situation now than I was then. Good luck with whatever you do.

[mrskal]

There is noone here that does not want to support another member, except maybe a few trolls here and there. Although it is not what you want to hear, it is all good advice. Melody, you had posted in another thread.

Here is what you posted:
"My husband and I decided next week that we are going to file Chapter 13. We are buried in debt and living paycheck to paycheck. On the 25th I will be 30 days late on my mortgage for the 1st time. Our car payment will be 30 days late on the 30th (if we don't pay it).My question is when should we file? Should we file right away to get the process going or should we wait a month to give ourselves some time to catch up with everything? From what I understand, our first trustee payment will be due about 30 days after our filing date so I am thinking may be should wait a bit, but not really sure. We are late on 2 credit card payments, but not all of them yet. We will be late on all of the in another 3 weeks or so. So, how long do most people wait to file after missing payments?

If that is not a sign that you should not be spending that much on gifts, I dont really know what is. I understand that you are far from foreclsure, but just wait until the fees start adding up from being late, and more interest is tacked on. It gets harder and harder to dig yourself out. Trust me when I say this, I wish I got some of this advice months before I filed, I would not be in a worse situation now than I was then. Good luck with whatever you do.

[ShooFly]

ShooFly, You need to know that not all of us are here because we are out of control spenders ..... some of us lost our jobs, took pay-cuts, got sick, got divorced, etc, etc .. please do not assume that we are all out of control spenders... chap 13 is difficult and hard enough without being told that we are all out of control spenders.... this board isn't about throwing insults it is about giving advise and supporting one another through what has probably been the hardest decision to make...

Mine is due to unemployment also, but I was spending too much on credit debt before that, and I had a big HELOC from the housing boom, hence the problem. Please don't pretend, barring some extreme realistic medical cases, that most people here aren't/weren't overspenders, because I know better. People also overspend just by living beyond their personal means with houses and cars. I have a hunch that not many of us got here by being thrifty savers... but in the end - that's what we're forced to become. Times were good, and most of us lived the life.

[enginegirl]

No is trying to convince you... but we agree with your trustee that $600 for kids gifts is going overboard, which is how you ended up here in the first place. If you're not going to change much, then why even file 13? Just move to an apartment and carry on. When the money and the credit runs out, you'll get it.

ShooFly, You need to know that not all of us are here because we are out of control spenders ..... some of us lost our jobs, took pay-cuts, got sick, got divorced, etc, etc .. please do not assume that we are all out of control spenders... chap 13 is difficult and hard enough without being told that we are all out of control spenders.... this board isn't about throwing insults it is about giving advise and supporting one another through what has probably been the hardest decision to make.

Melody.. have a wonderful Christmas and do read the advise of the people on here they have a lot of great thoughts and ways to be 'thrifty'!

[tobee43]

i so understand what your going through melody...and nowadays we get such "few" pleasure, and one of the greatest pleasures one can ever hold, is seeing their children smile and laugh...so i know this is breaking your heart...but they will be just fine!!! you'll make the christmas of all time!! the ONE they will always remember as special.. (that's what mommy's do best)..

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks so much for you support. I know I will be O.K. I am only 30 days late on one mortgage payment and no where near foreclosure. If Chapter 13 doesn't work out in the next few weeks, I will just use my saved lawyer money to pay the mortgage and we will be OK.

[tobee43]

Everyone has their own situation as to personal things in their lives. Filing BK and being at that point is a big life event that brings unwanted changes and while we all can come up with all the excuses we want for why we are there, being saddled with debt and trying to get out from under that debt is a big priority. It's difficult not being able to provide what one did in the past and you are extremely lucky to have such wonderful parents to help out with your children. It is also embarrassing to have to be in that position not to be able to provide your child with what they want...in the past, one would whip out the credit card and get it. Now one cannot do that and has to change their ways and learn to save for items, put things on layaway if possible or be lucky enough to have friends or family step in. The big issue is the change and how to cope with it and to learn to live on a cash only basis without the need to have something right now. It's difficult with kids and BK. They were used to getting what they want and right away and younger ones just do not understand.

Discuss your situation thoroughly with your attorney as your child's needs. Also note the trustee may question how you were able to afford their classes, etc. and may view your parents' input to help out with the kids as incoming funds to your household income.

i think the key word here as flamingo points out its "your child's needs".

many times we forget needs and wants are two different subject matters. first a child needs shoes...and then maybe a child would like a toy.

we also forget children are resilient and usually much more flexible that we are, or we THINK they are. they feed off of us and our emotions. maybe this christmas you can wrap more "needs" than "wants". if a child has many items to unwrap...many times they don't really care about what's "inside"..that does not mean you should not have one or two very special "wants".... also depending on how old the child is, and although i think children should not be burdened with our problems, i also believe they need to become mindful early with respecting money.

i don't think the intention of the trustee is to be the crinch who stole christmas. as pandora mentioned some trustees allow it and others don't. i would put it down and see what happens. i think especially since you are filing around the holidays, that hopefully, you will get a more understanding trustee.

[Pandora]

Thanks for the support. I do want to stay around because I have learned a lot from reading the posts, but just have been rather shocked how this thread has gotten so out of control. I will probably stay around and respond to other threads and read threads, but I will think twice before starting a new thread of my own again.

MelodayAM75,

I'm sorry if you feel "singled out" from all the responses, but I have to say I've read every single reply and I honestly do not feel that any member that replied is doing so in the manner some are thinking. I believe everyone is just trying to make you see things from a Trustee's point of view in the situation because we've all been there and done it already. Its hard to remove emotion from this mess we call bankruptcy, and filing a Ch. 13 is even more stressful for those of us that must or choose to. Think of all of this as a learning experience - every person that's replied has either tried to justify certain things within their schedules / budget and the trustee denied it - or in some instances, the trustee may have allowed it, but very little. If the trustee wont allow for Christmas/birthday gifts, this is where you can "pad" your budget in other areas, especially if you're not even at the IRS Standard allowances. Unfortunately the lawyer saying "yep, looks good to me" doesnt matter because in reality, it's up to the trustee as he/she has the final word on every dollar budgeted and spent. They arent here to help you, they're here to help the creditors recover as much money owed as possible. Hard to swallow sometimes I know - but you're getting advice from those that have been there and done it, so again, think of it as you're getting a "sneak preview" of what may happen. No one is saying it will happen 100% but the likelihood is very high.

I also dont believe anyone is saying not to buy your children Christmas presents or birthday gifts, I believe the issue is in how you worded it and then followed up with justifications based on emotions and/or how you were raised; that you "need to buy" and spend X amount of money. FWIW, you dont owe an explanation of your life to anyone on here, but if you post and then justify, you're open to opinions, differing from your own or not. You have to remember that you're talking in a BK forum, with people that have tried to justify their positions with the same reasoning, and it didnt work out as they thought or with what their lawyer's told them, i.e., reality set in hard and fast. You're a mom - you want the best of everything for your children, we all do as parents, we want to buy them the world and then some - and would if funds were unlimited. Unfortunately when a person looks at filing BK, reality just jumped up and smacked them squarely in the face, some feel it immediately and some don't, it takes stepping outside of their comfort zone and actually facing it head on - good, bad and ugly. It's scary, we all hate it - but in the end, it's the truth and sometimes the truth hurts, but it's the best thing because it helps us see clearly the problem areas we were trying to avoid and justify with our last breath.

Chapter 13 is hard, not going to sugar coat it - what your lawyer may think your payment will be isnt necessarily set in stone. The Trustee has final say on what he/she thinks you can afford to pay back and its up to you to make it work, regardless if you feel your payment should be less and the trustee is being a "meanie". That's their job unfortunately.

Glad you've decided to stay on the forums, you'll learn alot about how BK works - and doesnt work - when it comes to either Chapter. We've all been where you are and its so hard to remove the emotional aspect from it, especially when you have children, but eventually if you come to look at it from a business perspective, it all comes into view more clearly. Believe it or not, each and every one of the members that replied to your posting, did so to help you understand how BK works, how the trustee views "justifications" (they've heard them all..trust me), and what will and what will not work, and not out of spite.

Hang in there - it does get better!