Paralegal said NO Christmas Shopping

[Nanzee]

I got my kids Christmas presents last year (we filed in 11/09) and I will this year. Birthday presents too. I don't know if we were just lucky enough to get an attorney who made this possible for us, but he never said we would have to stop doing these things. We went away on vacation this summer too - in my case we were spending so much on "minimum monthly credit card payments, and the 2nd mortgage which was stripped, I am actually able to now pay my bills on time, and save. I think the last response was unnecessarily harsh, and I don't see the reason why. I thought we were all in the same boat here. Admonishing each other seems pointless to me. Just my 2 cents, of course.

[ShooFly]

I would like to respectfully ask that this thread by closed. No one here will be able to convince me that skipping Christmas or birthdays is the right thing to do. I will sacrfice other things. I will be switching cell phone companies soon to reduce my bill more than $100 and make other sacrifices as needed. While I was in college, I worked for The Salvation Army and each year 100's of parents came flooding in to apply for Christmas assistance for their kids because they did not have extra income to do so. I had the pleasure of passing out those gifts to the parents who could not afford to provide gifts for their children. Each child probably received $100 dollars are more in gifts - some more depending on the individuals who adopted their names off the angel tree. Christmas should be a magical time for children not a scene out of a Scrooge movie.

No is trying to convince you... but we agree with your trustee that $600 for kids gifts is going overboard, which is how you ended up here in the first place. If you're not going to change much, then why even file 13? Just move to an apartment and carry on. When the money and the credit runs out, you'll get it.

[MelodyAM75]

I appreciate your advice and concerns and didn't mean to come off sounding mean in my last post. My choice of words early on was probably not wise...I am a rational person who knows I don't "need" to spend money on toys so I should have more carefully chosen my words to say that I "want" to get my kids some toys. I plan to save over the next few weeks and comparison shop to get the best deals on those items I "want" to include on their Christmas list. Similarly, I "want" but do not need a pedicure or other personal luxuries so I understand the difference between wants and needs. I might get something like a pedicure once a year and only when given as a gift. I "want" to go out to eat sometimes, but don't "need" to...haven't been out to eat since my in-laws took me out to a restaurant for my birthday in September. My son's best friend just got back from his annual Disney World trip and I "want" to be able to take a vacation, but I know the reality is that there will be no Disney trips for at least 5 years (by the way, I have never been to Disney or anything like that so I haven't blown any money on such things.)

Anyway, I know that we will have to live more frugally to get through this difficult time, but at the same time I hope to get some relief from $500 student loan payments, excessive medical bills and other expenses. All in all my credit card debt is not very large - just about $4000 I think...so credit cards are not are biggest expense and we haven't even used our credit cards for several months and they have all been destroyed. We are not flat broke, but just barely making it month to month and just in the last month got behind on bills 30 days for the first time in the past 10 years or so. We are mainly doing a Chapter 13 to avoid any threats of foreclosure or repossessions; however, we have not received any notifications of pending foreclosure since we have only recently fell behind. We also feel like we owe so many bills that we will never pay them off and feel like Chapter 13 will help us to pay off bills more efficiently so that we can live life debt free, except for house payment and car payments.

You must recall that in my previous posting that I stated there was nothing wrong with getting Christmas presents...Saving $50 per month for that purpose is also not bad if you can do it as we did that amount or more by just saving our change each day in a big jar and not touching it. We always had money for the unexpected baby shower gift, wedding gift, etc. and kept our Xmas budget to a minimum. It worked, everyone stayed happy and the sun came up each day. What hit me the most about your initial posting is what I initially said - what worried me was your use of the words "need to." Putting food on the table and gas in the car is a necessity - a gift is not a necessity. The issue here is not the gift but your mindset which will change as time goes on and you settle into getting used to work with your finances and a Chapter 13 Plan. We all go through this in some way and all handle it differently. Note that you need to change your mindset to successfully get through this bankruptcy. I believe that is what most of the folks responding to you are trying to say.

[Freddy03]

I think many posts on this forum contain such emotional ammunition. It's really easy to go on the defensive when you're going through such a roller coaster ride such as bankruptcy is. I've read this post and started to respond and backed away several times. I can see the point from both sides of the fence.

Melody, I truly believe people have your best interest at heart in pointing out that your mindset is still in the early stages following the decision to file. I also believe that you are very passionate about your children and what you see as their "needs". I can totally relate to that. I have grown children and I also have a four year old. The thought of her waking up to nothing under the tree would be hard to take, but my older children tell me even now that gifts weren't what they remember about the holidays.

However, there are good bits of advice from various posters here. This is the first year you've had to deal with this budget. The advice from the paralegal was "NO Christmas shopping." She also has your best interest at heart. She knows what the trustee will take exception to. I think there is a happy medium in here somewhere. You know you need to learn to budget, save for presents, etc. I would wager that next Christmas won't be nearly as stressful, since you will be prepared. So, for this year, I'd hang on the side of being frugal, knowing that things WILL start to look up. Graciously accept the help of your family in providing for your children, it's a blessing they WANT to share. It's the whole "fresh start" idea. Get your children that one or two important, affordable gifts. Start saving for next year, whether it be a budgeted savings account, money in a jar, or whatever works for you.

I guess what I'm hoping to say here is that we need to be gentle, honest and fair to each other. We are all in the same boat having either been through it, going through it, or getting ready to go through it. We need to remember that everyone isn't attacking us personally with their advice...they are telling a story, how they've handled things, how they've made their situation better. And we need to take all the posts with a grain of salt. There isn't a right and wrong, there is just a community of people who have experiences to share. And with that, I wish you all a very Merry Christmas, a bit early ;)

Well said

[free2breathe]

I think many posts on this forum contain such emotional ammunition. It's really easy to go on the defensive when you're going through such a roller coaster ride such as bankruptcy is. I've read this post and started to respond and backed away several times. I can see the point from both sides of the fence.

Melody, I truly believe people have your best interest at heart in pointing out that your mindset is still in the early stages following the decision to file. I also believe that you are very passionate about your children and what you see as their "needs". I can totally relate to that. I have grown children and I also have a four year old. The thought of her waking up to nothing under the tree would be hard to take, but my older children tell me even now that gifts weren't what they remember about the holidays.

However, there are good bits of advice from various posters here. This is the first year you've had to deal with this budget. The advice from the paralegal was "NO Christmas shopping." She also has your best interest at heart. She knows what the trustee will take exception to. I think there is a happy medium in here somewhere. You know you need to learn to budget, save for presents, etc. I would wager that next Christmas won't be nearly as stressful, since you will be prepared. So, for this year, I'd hang on the side of being frugal, knowing that things WILL start to look up. Graciously accept the help of your family in providing for your children, it's a blessing they WANT to share. It's the whole "fresh start" idea. Get your children that one or two important, affordable gifts. Start saving for next year, whether it be a budgeted savings account, money in a jar, or whatever works for you.

I guess what I'm hoping to say here is that we need to be gentle, honest and fair to each other. We are all in the same boat having either been through it, going through it, or getting ready to go through it. We need to remember that everyone isn't attacking us personally with their advice...they are telling a story, how they've handled things, how they've made their situation better. And we need to take all the posts with a grain of salt. There isn't a right and wrong, there is just a community of people who have experiences to share. And with that, I wish you all a very Merry Christmas, a bit early ;)

[Flamingo]

My mother also grew up very poor and often was hungry and without basic necessities. As a result she is now a hoarder. I however despise clutter so I limit the things that come into my home. My kids don't have gameboys, ipods, cellphones, etc.

While most that replied to my post were appalled at my budget, I received numerous private messages from those who felt my Christmas budget was not excessive. Those who sent me private messages did so because they didn't want to suffer the same bashing that I have. I don't think I will be posting here anymore after something as simple as Christmas budget has turned into a heated debate.

You must recall that in my previous posting that I stated there was nothing wrong with getting Christmas presents...Saving $50 per month for that purpose is also not bad if you can do it as we did that amount or more by just saving our change each day in a big jar and not touching it. We always had money for the unexpected baby shower gift, wedding gift, etc. and kept our Xmas budget to a minimum. It worked, everyone stayed happy and the sun came up each day. What hit me the most about your initial posting is what I initially said - what worried me was your use of the words "need to." Putting food on the table and gas in the car is a necessity - a gift is not a necessity. The issue here is not the gift but your mindset which will change as time goes on and you settle into getting used to work with your finances and a Chapter 13 Plan. We all go through this in some way and all handle it differently. Note that you need to change your mindset to successfully get through this bankruptcy. I believe that is what most of the folks responding to you are trying to say.

[LadyInTheRed]

Last year at Christmas, my 2 year old nephew was showered by gifts by his large extended family. After opening them all, he spent hours playing with a large cardboard box that one of the gifts came in. Sometimes he was content to be by himself with his imagination and his box, and other times he drew the older kids and adults into his play. He eventually fell asleep inside the box with the biggest content smile on his face. No $200 gift or combination of gifts would have made him happier.

[MelodyAM75]

My mother also grew up very poor and often was hungry and without basic necessities. As a result she is now a hoarder. I however despise clutter so I limit the things that come into my home. My kids don't have gameboys, ipods, cellphones, etc.

While most that replied to my post were appalled at my budget, I received numerous private messages from those who felt my Christmas budget was not excessive. Those who sent me private messages did so because they didn't want to suffer the same bashing that I have. I don't think I will be posting here anymore after something as simple as Christmas budget has turned into a heated debate.

Well MelodyAM75 before your request is granted, I must add in one thing: Almost everyone was in disagreement with the amount of money you had on hand to give to "presents". My Mother, a child of the depression was fortunate to get an apple or orange. If her Dad had any time, he may have made her a wooden toy. He lost his job in the depression and became a "rail road hobo" and rode the rails to send home any money he could. He lost his house but the bank then let them live in it for the duration. Once he had a job, and another house, he actually paid the note complete on the original house. That does not happen in this day.

Those children at those ages do not need a lot of expensive stuff. My parents like today, bought me and brother off with 'stuff' and not time. Our Christmas was grand with junk that by the end of day, was either broken or we were bored with them.

My Mother as a child, never had a turkey Christmas dinner. A hand wrong neck of a yard hen was a delicacy.

We in our day and age just don't get it. YOU are bankrupt. I am too. I'm through and have applied the "new start" in earnest.

The emergency savings is far more important that gifts. Purchase wisely.

You wish the thread to be closed as you are not getting answers you are fishing for. Just be a good Mom and that is all the kids want or expect. Give them a LOT of inexpensive things. No game boys or that kind of junk.

Now, that is MY opinion. 'Hub

[AngelinaCatHub]

Well MelodyAM75 before your request is granted, I must add in one thing: Almost everyone was in disagreement with the amount of money you had on hand to give to "presents". My Mother, a child of the depression was fortunate to get an apple or orange. If her Dad had any time, he may have made her a wooden toy. He lost his job in the depression and became a "rail road hobo" and rode the rails to send home any money he could. He lost his house but the bank then let them live in it for the duration. Once he had a job, and another house, he actually paid the note complete on the original house. That does not happen in this day.

Those children at those ages do not need a lot of expensive stuff. My parents like today, bought me and brother off with 'stuff' and not time. Our Christmas was grand with junk that by the end of day, was either broken or we were bored with them.

My Mother as a child, never had a turkey Christmas dinner. A hand wrong neck of a yard hen was a delicacy.

We in our day and age just don't get it. YOU are bankrupt. I am too. I'm through and have applied the "new start" in earnest.

The emergency savings is far more important that gifts. Purchase wisely.

You wish the thread to be closed as you are not getting answers you are fishing for. Just be a good Mom and that is all the kids want or expect. Give them a LOT of inexpensive things. No game boys or that kind of junk.

Now, that is MY opinion. 'Hub

[HHM]

Well, even if there is on convincing you...I think you should address your mind set. Creativity and togetherness go much further than cash. But as far as a BK is concerned, no putting Christmas on credit cards, and the purchases need to be reasonable.

The thing is, children are used a crutch or excuse for spending more than you have.

[MelodyAM75]

I would like to respectfully ask that this thread by closed. No one here will be able to convince me that skipping Christmas or birthdays is the right thing to do. I will sacrfice other things. I will be switching cell phone companies soon to reduce my bill more than $100 and make other sacrifices as needed. While I was in college, I worked for The Salvation Army and each year 100's of parents came flooding in to apply for Christmas assistance for their kids because they did not have extra income to do so. I had the pleasure of passing out those gifts to the parents who could not afford to provide gifts for their children. Each child probably received $100 dollars are more in gifts - some more depending on the individuals who adopted their names off the angel tree. Christmas should be a magical time for children not a scene out of a Scrooge movie.

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks so much for you reply. I was beginning to think that everyone thinks buying Christmas presents is a serious waste of money. I was a smoker in my teens/early 20's and easily spent $50/month on cigerettes. I used to have a cat, but he died last year at the age of 14 and I am sure I spent $50 a month on him between cat food and vet visits. When he got sick I took him to the vet and it cost my $300 to have him put to sleep because he was stuggling to breathe (had a serious respiratory infection) and there was no hope of recovery. So, my point being that if my cat or cigerettes are worth $600 per year, so are my kids. My kids would certainly notice if I forget to buy them gifts or gave them cheap toys that will break in a few days. I would rather spend $50 dollars on a nice toy that will last for years, than $30 on several poorly made toys that would fall apart shortly after Christmas.

Hi everyone -- I am going to be the only one to actually defend Melody. I think there is nothing wrong with her spending some money on the children for Christmas and Birthdays. I know some Trustees allow this to be input on eligible expenses, if not I am sure she can find somewhere to "pad" the numbers. Maybe what she should do is just split the normal $400.00 annual expense to $200.00 (50.00 for Christmas, 50.00 for birthday, per child). Baby steps. That would only be $17.00 a month she would need to save. Maybe she can use some of entertainment expense for this, eat out one less time or make grilled cheese and chicken noodle to save the money -- there is options. It seems everyone is not helping her with options but instead making her seem like she is bad for wanting to spend more than 5.00 for a child's Christmas gift. Many people on here have pets, like I do. Does this mean because I filing bankruptcy I should get rid of the dog, or not give her shots and worming medication? No, I just have to use some of my food budget, or somewhere else to pay for it. Just my 2 cents.

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks for your reply. I also feel that $50 dollars a month is not too much to spend on my kids. I don't smoke cigerettes, but did when I was younger (I quit when I was 26 when I got pregnant with my son). I easily spent $50 a month on cigerettes. My attorney had no problem with a $100 satellite bill so I don't know why my kids would be less important than my satellite bill. I would cut that out before I would let my kids wake up Christmas morning to find nothing.

[momofthree]

While I agree that there is nothing wrong with saving money each month towards xmas & birthdays, there is a huge difference between that and coming up with $600 to spend 1 month from now, when there is most likely zero money put aside in an emergency fund. The priority upon first filing bk is to create a reasonable budget, learn to stick to it carefully, and save up an e-fund as quickly as possible. Murphy will visit and you never know when. The sooner you're prepared the better. A more reasonable Christmas/birthday season this year would be a wise decision.

[olivies]

Hi everyone -- I am going to be the only one to actually defend Melody. I think there is nothing wrong with her spending some money on the children for Christmas and Birthdays. I know some Trustees allow this to be input on eligible expenses, if not I am sure she can find somewhere to "pad" the numbers. Maybe what she should do is just split the normal $400.00 annual expense to $200.00 (50.00 for Christmas, 50.00 for birthday, per child). Baby steps. That would only be $17.00 a month she would need to save. Maybe she can use some of entertainment expense for this, eat out one less time or make grilled cheese and chicken noodle to save the money -- there is options. It seems everyone is not helping her with options but instead making her seem like she is bad for wanting to spend more than 5.00 for a child's Christmas gift. Many people on here have pets, like I do. Does this mean because I filing bankruptcy I should get rid of the dog, or not give her shots and worming medication? No, I just have to use some of my food budget, or somewhere else to pay for it. Just my 2 cents.

Gotta say, I agree. I've seen people budget for cigarettes and pets - things that those people "need" in their mind and they've been given advice on where they can include those items in the budget and where to pad for those items.

Melody- I don't think $600 a year for birthday and Christmas presents for your kids is an exorbitant amount. Sure it could be lower, but I don't believe it has to be "nothing" for the next 3-5 years. I wonder how many people here actually spend nothing on those things just because they are in a 13 and every non-essential penny should go to the trustee. Your essential is your kids, someone else's is their premium cable package, coffee, cigarettes, or pets. As someone pointed out- if you can budget to pay your kids an allowance surely you can budget to buy your child a birthday gift!

The whole point of a 13 is to budget, stick to it, and pay back a portion of your debt. If you are being honest and saying 'hey, I want to budget for Christmas and birthdays for my kids', well you're more likely to stick to the budget and make the plan work. BUT, you do have to stick to the plan. People budget for entertainment & recreation, you could pad it there maybe. $600 a year comes out to $50 each month- surely there is a category or two you can pad to come up with that $50. All is not lost. As for making the actual purchases this year and having it be on your bank statement, etc.- Make the purchases in cash, but be aware that any large cash withdrawal will bring questions, and consider layaway. That way you can pay for it in small increments and pick it up for Christmas.

I am not a lawyer though. So whichever lawyer you choose, definitely work with them to make it workable for the trustee and take their advice.