Paralegal said NO Christmas Shopping

[MelodyAM75]

By the way, I have consulted with 2 other lawyers who have no issues with Christmas/birthday spending. They only warn about using credit cards for those expenses. I won't be using credit cards because all mine have been cut up for a while now.

[momofthree]

I have to warn you that if you have an extra $600 to spend on Christmas and birthday presents in Dec, then not only is that a red flag to the trustee if he finds out, but it also means that you are not living within your means. When you have extra money (which you will each month due to budgeted expenses that don't come up every month), it is imperative that you save that money. You will no longer have credit to fall back on, all you have are your cash reserves. If you find yourself still living paycheck-to-paycheck or spending the extra money in your budget, then your plan is sure to fail. You must must MUST learn to budget carefully and save every dime you can until you have built up a safety net. 5 years is a long time and rest assured, you will have medical expenses, a car will need maintenance or repairs, as will the house, or a multitude of other expenses that you need to be prepared for. Gifts will seem a huge waste of money when your septic tank is spewing feces everywhere and you have no way to pay to fix it!

Believe me, your 2-year-old won't know the difference between a $50 gift or a $5 gift. The 8-year-old is old enough to receive an allowance and learn to save up his own money for what he wants, while receiving small token gifts on holidays. My 7-year-old gets $7 a month and has become quite the little saver. My hubby asked him the other day if he wanted to spend some of his allowance and go to the movies with daddy and he said "no, I want to save my allowance to buy a new game." So they skipped the movie and my little man is slowly saving up for a new Mario Wii game, which I'm sure he will appreciate all the more for having bought it himself. My 5-year-old hasn't quite learned yet, he spends his $5/mo on candy mostly, lol, but I'm sure he'll learn in time as well....My 2-year-old will begin receiving her allowance when she turns 5.

And FYI, Target has a HUGE 75% off toy clearance the last Thurs. of every Jan. and July. I strongly suggest you check it out from here on out. You can get everything from $100 lego sets for $25 all the way down to tons of $10 toys for only $2.50! I spent $200 last July and got $800 worth of toys that will provide an awesome Christmas AND birthdays for all 3 of my kids as well as gifts for my nieces and nephews! I save a little each month so that I have the money available when the sale hits. I normally just shop the July one because not many people know about it. I've hit it every year for the last 5 years. LOVE IT!

[Flamingo]

Again, as I stated previously, you mention in one of your initial postings that you "NEED" to spend this money; after reading your explanation I suggest you save that explanation somewhere and pull it out in a year's time and see if you feel the same way. Right now you are concerned with not being able to do what you did in the past and are equating buying things with showing love and giving your children things you may not have had or or family members had. If you don't learn to get out of that mindset, you will never be able to stop living beyond your means (exactly what you were doing prior to getting where you were along with your medical bills). It will be hard for you to admit that. A Chapter 13 is the best budget teacher in the world and in the 3 to 5 years that you will be in that Plan, you will learn to budget and budget some more and get to the point where you never want to see a credit card again. We look back at purchases we made years ago and wonder why in the heck we did what we did. We had a 13 year old in 2001 when my husband lost his job and we lost over 70% of our total income with that. She learned to do without and also has become one heck of a money manager.

There is nothing wrong with buying Christmas gifts but realize that they are not a necessity and you don't have to provide gifts for every holiday on the calendar. Filing bankruptcy means one is broke (insolvent). Your main priority right now should be getting your financial house established and learn how to control your funds without relying on credit. Right now you don't see that and are having a hard time with the change and facing reality. You will adjust and realize your kids don't need even half of what you want to buy for them - you are just making yourself feel better thinking they do.

Best of luck to you...

[tigergem]

Well, I will have to agree to disagree with those who think my Christmas budget is too much. If I were buying my kids 4-wheelers and such I would understand, but they don't have things like that. I routinely get their clothes from Ebay and my Mom finds them things at The Salvation Army thrift store all the time and that's no problem for me. I won't be buying Dollar Tree toys because those toys break within hours of getting them. Unfortunately, my parents didn't spend time with me as a child and expressed their love through gifts so I have a tendency to want to get my kids things. My parents also express love to my kids through gifts as well...my dad has only hugged my daughter once that I can remember, but he buys her dresses every month becuase she loves getting new clothes. The last time I my dad hugged me I was probably 4 and the last time I hugged my mom was when I was 19 and my older brother died in a car accident.

However, I DO spend time with my kids and hug them and show affection unlike my parents. My kids don't get toys, movies, etc. throughout the year so birthday and Christmas are special occassions. My Mom got my daughter a lot of Fisher Price dollhouse accessories she found new in packages from a thrift store so I do want to get her the $50 doll house to go with them and I know she will play with it for years to come. My 2 kids rooms are not overflowing with toys. I routinely donate things they outgrow. I try to get them only things I know they will really enjoy and play with. I plan to shop sales and use coupons, discount codes, etc. to get good deals on the things I plan to get them for Christmas. I am a thrifty shopper and never pay full price for anything, but manage to get nice things for a little bit of money. Recently got my son 2 new winter shirts (he's outgrown his clothes from last year) and my daughter a dress and two pairs of shoes (she's outgrown her winter shoes) all for about $30.00 at the mall. The things were on clearance/sale and I had store coupons. I never buy holiday decorations and such until after they go on clearance after the holidays for about 75 percent off. I know I am not a the best money manager or else I wouldn't be in debt, but to be fair a lot of my bills are medical bills left from my daughter's month long stay in the NICU when she was born 9 weeks early and from her heart surgery when she was a year old. Also, my husband works on commission and business has been slow so that has lead to problems. I am trying to get my finances under control and cut up my credit cards a few months ago before I had even considered bankrupty. I work as much as I can freelancing, but I have fibromyalgia and sometimes just can't find the energy after teaching all day, taking care of kids and doing assignments for an online class I am taking (getting another master's degree with a scholarship I won). My coworkers think I am like the energizer bunny at work, but they don't know I sometimes collalse into bed by 7pm at night. I am doing the best I can and will continue to do the best I can for my kids.

While you are making these excuses about what you "need", I would love for you to imagine yourself making this same argument to the Trustee. Or better yet, I would love to be a fly on the wall if you actually DO try to make these excuses to the Trustee. It seems to me that you use your "thriftiness" as an excuse to buy more stuff, because you did such a good job not paying full price for the first thing. Why not spend the savings on the second thing? I know this, because I have done it too. BAD BAD BAD IDEA. Bottom line, while you are making these excuses, you are setting yourself up for a dismal chapter 13 failure. You have to learn to stick to a budget FIRST, meet your basic living needs SECOND, (housing, food, utilities, medical necessities), make your chapter 13 payment, and THEN, after everything else, see what you can shop for LAST. If you are considering bankruptcy, you need to realize that your finances HAVE hit a brick wall already, and it seems to me that you have not thoroughly realized why this happened, what you did to cause it, and what you need to do change the circumstance and prevent it from being a problem in the future. Until you face the reality that you are BROKE, you cannot SPEND like you want to, you should not file for Chapter 13. This ain't no party.

[FishersMike]

Hi everyone -- I am going to be the only one to actually defend Melody. I think there is nothing wrong with her spending some money on the children for Christmas and Birthdays. I know some Trustees allow this to be input on eligible expenses, if not I am sure she can find somewhere to "pad" the numbers. Maybe what she should do is just split the normal $400.00 annual expense to $200.00 (50.00 for Christmas, 50.00 for birthday, per child). Baby steps. That would only be $17.00 a month she would need to save. Maybe she can use some of entertainment expense for this, eat out one less time or make grilled cheese and chicken noodle to save the money -- there is options. It seems everyone is not helping her with options but instead making her seem like she is bad for wanting to spend more than 5.00 for a child's Christmas gift. Many people on here have pets, like I do. Does this mean because I filing bankruptcy I should get rid of the dog, or not give her shots and worming medication? No, I just have to use some of my food budget, or somewhere else to pay for it. Just my 2 cents.

[olivies]

Hi everyone -- I am going to be the only one to actually defend Melody. I think there is nothing wrong with her spending some money on the children for Christmas and Birthdays. I know some Trustees allow this to be input on eligible expenses, if not I am sure she can find somewhere to "pad" the numbers. Maybe what she should do is just split the normal $400.00 annual expense to $200.00 (50.00 for Christmas, 50.00 for birthday, per child). Baby steps. That would only be $17.00 a month she would need to save. Maybe she can use some of entertainment expense for this, eat out one less time or make grilled cheese and chicken noodle to save the money -- there is options. It seems everyone is not helping her with options but instead making her seem like she is bad for wanting to spend more than 5.00 for a child's Christmas gift. Many people on here have pets, like I do. Does this mean because I filing bankruptcy I should get rid of the dog, or not give her shots and worming medication? No, I just have to use some of my food budget, or somewhere else to pay for it. Just my 2 cents.

Gotta say, I agree. I've seen people budget for cigarettes and pets - things that those people "need" in their mind and they've been given advice on where they can include those items in the budget and where to pad for those items.

Melody- I don't think $600 a year for birthday and Christmas presents for your kids is an exorbitant amount. Sure it could be lower, but I don't believe it has to be "nothing" for the next 3-5 years. I wonder how many people here actually spend nothing on those things just because they are in a 13 and every non-essential penny should go to the trustee. Your essential is your kids, someone else's is their premium cable package, coffee, cigarettes, or pets. As someone pointed out- if you can budget to pay your kids an allowance surely you can budget to buy your child a birthday gift!

The whole point of a 13 is to budget, stick to it, and pay back a portion of your debt. If you are being honest and saying 'hey, I want to budget for Christmas and birthdays for my kids', well you're more likely to stick to the budget and make the plan work. BUT, you do have to stick to the plan. People budget for entertainment & recreation, you could pad it there maybe. $600 a year comes out to $50 each month- surely there is a category or two you can pad to come up with that $50. All is not lost. As for making the actual purchases this year and having it be on your bank statement, etc.- Make the purchases in cash, but be aware that any large cash withdrawal will bring questions, and consider layaway. That way you can pay for it in small increments and pick it up for Christmas.

I am not a lawyer though. So whichever lawyer you choose, definitely work with them to make it workable for the trustee and take their advice.

[momofthree]

While I agree that there is nothing wrong with saving money each month towards xmas & birthdays, there is a huge difference between that and coming up with $600 to spend 1 month from now, when there is most likely zero money put aside in an emergency fund. The priority upon first filing bk is to create a reasonable budget, learn to stick to it carefully, and save up an e-fund as quickly as possible. Murphy will visit and you never know when. The sooner you're prepared the better. A more reasonable Christmas/birthday season this year would be a wise decision.

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks for your reply. I also feel that $50 dollars a month is not too much to spend on my kids. I don't smoke cigerettes, but did when I was younger (I quit when I was 26 when I got pregnant with my son). I easily spent $50 a month on cigerettes. My attorney had no problem with a $100 satellite bill so I don't know why my kids would be less important than my satellite bill. I would cut that out before I would let my kids wake up Christmas morning to find nothing.

[MelodyAM75]

Thanks so much for you reply. I was beginning to think that everyone thinks buying Christmas presents is a serious waste of money. I was a smoker in my teens/early 20's and easily spent $50/month on cigerettes. I used to have a cat, but he died last year at the age of 14 and I am sure I spent $50 a month on him between cat food and vet visits. When he got sick I took him to the vet and it cost my $300 to have him put to sleep because he was stuggling to breathe (had a serious respiratory infection) and there was no hope of recovery. So, my point being that if my cat or cigerettes are worth $600 per year, so are my kids. My kids would certainly notice if I forget to buy them gifts or gave them cheap toys that will break in a few days. I would rather spend $50 dollars on a nice toy that will last for years, than $30 on several poorly made toys that would fall apart shortly after Christmas.

Hi everyone -- I am going to be the only one to actually defend Melody. I think there is nothing wrong with her spending some money on the children for Christmas and Birthdays. I know some Trustees allow this to be input on eligible expenses, if not I am sure she can find somewhere to "pad" the numbers. Maybe what she should do is just split the normal $400.00 annual expense to $200.00 (50.00 for Christmas, 50.00 for birthday, per child). Baby steps. That would only be $17.00 a month she would need to save. Maybe she can use some of entertainment expense for this, eat out one less time or make grilled cheese and chicken noodle to save the money -- there is options. It seems everyone is not helping her with options but instead making her seem like she is bad for wanting to spend more than 5.00 for a child's Christmas gift. Many people on here have pets, like I do. Does this mean because I filing bankruptcy I should get rid of the dog, or not give her shots and worming medication? No, I just have to use some of my food budget, or somewhere else to pay for it. Just my 2 cents.

[MelodyAM75]

I would like to respectfully ask that this thread by closed. No one here will be able to convince me that skipping Christmas or birthdays is the right thing to do. I will sacrfice other things. I will be switching cell phone companies soon to reduce my bill more than $100 and make other sacrifices as needed. While I was in college, I worked for The Salvation Army and each year 100's of parents came flooding in to apply for Christmas assistance for their kids because they did not have extra income to do so. I had the pleasure of passing out those gifts to the parents who could not afford to provide gifts for their children. Each child probably received $100 dollars are more in gifts - some more depending on the individuals who adopted their names off the angel tree. Christmas should be a magical time for children not a scene out of a Scrooge movie.

[HHM]

Well, even if there is on convincing you...I think you should address your mind set. Creativity and togetherness go much further than cash. But as far as a BK is concerned, no putting Christmas on credit cards, and the purchases need to be reasonable.

The thing is, children are used a crutch or excuse for spending more than you have.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Well MelodyAM75 before your request is granted, I must add in one thing: Almost everyone was in disagreement with the amount of money you had on hand to give to "presents". My Mother, a child of the depression was fortunate to get an apple or orange. If her Dad had any time, he may have made her a wooden toy. He lost his job in the depression and became a "rail road hobo" and rode the rails to send home any money he could. He lost his house but the bank then let them live in it for the duration. Once he had a job, and another house, he actually paid the note complete on the original house. That does not happen in this day.

Those children at those ages do not need a lot of expensive stuff. My parents like today, bought me and brother off with 'stuff' and not time. Our Christmas was grand with junk that by the end of day, was either broken or we were bored with them.

My Mother as a child, never had a turkey Christmas dinner. A hand wrong neck of a yard hen was a delicacy.

We in our day and age just don't get it. YOU are bankrupt. I am too. I'm through and have applied the "new start" in earnest.

The emergency savings is far more important that gifts. Purchase wisely.

You wish the thread to be closed as you are not getting answers you are fishing for. Just be a good Mom and that is all the kids want or expect. Give them a LOT of inexpensive things. No game boys or that kind of junk.

Now, that is MY opinion. 'Hub

[MelodyAM75]

My mother also grew up very poor and often was hungry and without basic necessities. As a result she is now a hoarder. I however despise clutter so I limit the things that come into my home. My kids don't have gameboys, ipods, cellphones, etc.

While most that replied to my post were appalled at my budget, I received numerous private messages from those who felt my Christmas budget was not excessive. Those who sent me private messages did so because they didn't want to suffer the same bashing that I have. I don't think I will be posting here anymore after something as simple as Christmas budget has turned into a heated debate.

Well MelodyAM75 before your request is granted, I must add in one thing: Almost everyone was in disagreement with the amount of money you had on hand to give to "presents". My Mother, a child of the depression was fortunate to get an apple or orange. If her Dad had any time, he may have made her a wooden toy. He lost his job in the depression and became a "rail road hobo" and rode the rails to send home any money he could. He lost his house but the bank then let them live in it for the duration. Once he had a job, and another house, he actually paid the note complete on the original house. That does not happen in this day.

Those children at those ages do not need a lot of expensive stuff. My parents like today, bought me and brother off with 'stuff' and not time. Our Christmas was grand with junk that by the end of day, was either broken or we were bored with them.

My Mother as a child, never had a turkey Christmas dinner. A hand wrong neck of a yard hen was a delicacy.

We in our day and age just don't get it. YOU are bankrupt. I am too. I'm through and have applied the "new start" in earnest.

The emergency savings is far more important that gifts. Purchase wisely.

You wish the thread to be closed as you are not getting answers you are fishing for. Just be a good Mom and that is all the kids want or expect. Give them a LOT of inexpensive things. No game boys or that kind of junk.

Now, that is MY opinion. 'Hub

[LadyInTheRed]

Last year at Christmas, my 2 year old nephew was showered by gifts by his large extended family. After opening them all, he spent hours playing with a large cardboard box that one of the gifts came in. Sometimes he was content to be by himself with his imagination and his box, and other times he drew the older kids and adults into his play. He eventually fell asleep inside the box with the biggest content smile on his face. No $200 gift or combination of gifts would have made him happier.

[Flamingo]

My mother also grew up very poor and often was hungry and without basic necessities. As a result she is now a hoarder. I however despise clutter so I limit the things that come into my home. My kids don't have gameboys, ipods, cellphones, etc.

While most that replied to my post were appalled at my budget, I received numerous private messages from those who felt my Christmas budget was not excessive. Those who sent me private messages did so because they didn't want to suffer the same bashing that I have. I don't think I will be posting here anymore after something as simple as Christmas budget has turned into a heated debate.

You must recall that in my previous posting that I stated there was nothing wrong with getting Christmas presents...Saving $50 per month for that purpose is also not bad if you can do it as we did that amount or more by just saving our change each day in a big jar and not touching it. We always had money for the unexpected baby shower gift, wedding gift, etc. and kept our Xmas budget to a minimum. It worked, everyone stayed happy and the sun came up each day. What hit me the most about your initial posting is what I initially said - what worried me was your use of the words "need to." Putting food on the table and gas in the car is a necessity - a gift is not a necessity. The issue here is not the gift but your mindset which will change as time goes on and you settle into getting used to work with your finances and a Chapter 13 Plan. We all go through this in some way and all handle it differently. Note that you need to change your mindset to successfully get through this bankruptcy. I believe that is what most of the folks responding to you are trying to say.