Paralegal said NO Christmas Shopping

[FishersMike]

Hi everyone -- I am going to be the only one to actually defend Melody. I think there is nothing wrong with her spending some money on the children for Christmas and Birthdays. I know some Trustees allow this to be input on eligible expenses, if not I am sure she can find somewhere to "pad" the numbers. Maybe what she should do is just split the normal $400.00 annual expense to $200.00 (50.00 for Christmas, 50.00 for birthday, per child). Baby steps. That would only be $17.00 a month she would need to save. Maybe she can use some of entertainment expense for this, eat out one less time or make grilled cheese and chicken noodle to save the money -- there is options. It seems everyone is not helping her with options but instead making her seem like she is bad for wanting to spend more than 5.00 for a child's Christmas gift. Many people on here have pets, like I do. Does this mean because I filing bankruptcy I should get rid of the dog, or not give her shots and worming medication? No, I just have to use some of my food budget, or somewhere else to pay for it. Just my 2 cents.

[tigergem]

Well, I will have to agree to disagree with those who think my Christmas budget is too much. If I were buying my kids 4-wheelers and such I would understand, but they don't have things like that. I routinely get their clothes from Ebay and my Mom finds them things at The Salvation Army thrift store all the time and that's no problem for me. I won't be buying Dollar Tree toys because those toys break within hours of getting them. Unfortunately, my parents didn't spend time with me as a child and expressed their love through gifts so I have a tendency to want to get my kids things. My parents also express love to my kids through gifts as well...my dad has only hugged my daughter once that I can remember, but he buys her dresses every month becuase she loves getting new clothes. The last time I my dad hugged me I was probably 4 and the last time I hugged my mom was when I was 19 and my older brother died in a car accident.

However, I DO spend time with my kids and hug them and show affection unlike my parents. My kids don't get toys, movies, etc. throughout the year so birthday and Christmas are special occassions. My Mom got my daughter a lot of Fisher Price dollhouse accessories she found new in packages from a thrift store so I do want to get her the $50 doll house to go with them and I know she will play with it for years to come. My 2 kids rooms are not overflowing with toys. I routinely donate things they outgrow. I try to get them only things I know they will really enjoy and play with. I plan to shop sales and use coupons, discount codes, etc. to get good deals on the things I plan to get them for Christmas. I am a thrifty shopper and never pay full price for anything, but manage to get nice things for a little bit of money. Recently got my son 2 new winter shirts (he's outgrown his clothes from last year) and my daughter a dress and two pairs of shoes (she's outgrown her winter shoes) all for about $30.00 at the mall. The things were on clearance/sale and I had store coupons. I never buy holiday decorations and such until after they go on clearance after the holidays for about 75 percent off. I know I am not a the best money manager or else I wouldn't be in debt, but to be fair a lot of my bills are medical bills left from my daughter's month long stay in the NICU when she was born 9 weeks early and from her heart surgery when she was a year old. Also, my husband works on commission and business has been slow so that has lead to problems. I am trying to get my finances under control and cut up my credit cards a few months ago before I had even considered bankrupty. I work as much as I can freelancing, but I have fibromyalgia and sometimes just can't find the energy after teaching all day, taking care of kids and doing assignments for an online class I am taking (getting another master's degree with a scholarship I won). My coworkers think I am like the energizer bunny at work, but they don't know I sometimes collalse into bed by 7pm at night. I am doing the best I can and will continue to do the best I can for my kids.

While you are making these excuses about what you "need", I would love for you to imagine yourself making this same argument to the Trustee. Or better yet, I would love to be a fly on the wall if you actually DO try to make these excuses to the Trustee. It seems to me that you use your "thriftiness" as an excuse to buy more stuff, because you did such a good job not paying full price for the first thing. Why not spend the savings on the second thing? I know this, because I have done it too. BAD BAD BAD IDEA. Bottom line, while you are making these excuses, you are setting yourself up for a dismal chapter 13 failure. You have to learn to stick to a budget FIRST, meet your basic living needs SECOND, (housing, food, utilities, medical necessities), make your chapter 13 payment, and THEN, after everything else, see what you can shop for LAST. If you are considering bankruptcy, you need to realize that your finances HAVE hit a brick wall already, and it seems to me that you have not thoroughly realized why this happened, what you did to cause it, and what you need to do change the circumstance and prevent it from being a problem in the future. Until you face the reality that you are BROKE, you cannot SPEND like you want to, you should not file for Chapter 13. This ain't no party.

[Flamingo]

Again, as I stated previously, you mention in one of your initial postings that you "NEED" to spend this money; after reading your explanation I suggest you save that explanation somewhere and pull it out in a year's time and see if you feel the same way. Right now you are concerned with not being able to do what you did in the past and are equating buying things with showing love and giving your children things you may not have had or or family members had. If you don't learn to get out of that mindset, you will never be able to stop living beyond your means (exactly what you were doing prior to getting where you were along with your medical bills). It will be hard for you to admit that. A Chapter 13 is the best budget teacher in the world and in the 3 to 5 years that you will be in that Plan, you will learn to budget and budget some more and get to the point where you never want to see a credit card again. We look back at purchases we made years ago and wonder why in the heck we did what we did. We had a 13 year old in 2001 when my husband lost his job and we lost over 70% of our total income with that. She learned to do without and also has become one heck of a money manager.

There is nothing wrong with buying Christmas gifts but realize that they are not a necessity and you don't have to provide gifts for every holiday on the calendar. Filing bankruptcy means one is broke (insolvent). Your main priority right now should be getting your financial house established and learn how to control your funds without relying on credit. Right now you don't see that and are having a hard time with the change and facing reality. You will adjust and realize your kids don't need even half of what you want to buy for them - you are just making yourself feel better thinking they do.

Best of luck to you...

[momofthree]

I have to warn you that if you have an extra $600 to spend on Christmas and birthday presents in Dec, then not only is that a red flag to the trustee if he finds out, but it also means that you are not living within your means. When you have extra money (which you will each month due to budgeted expenses that don't come up every month), it is imperative that you save that money. You will no longer have credit to fall back on, all you have are your cash reserves. If you find yourself still living paycheck-to-paycheck or spending the extra money in your budget, then your plan is sure to fail. You must must MUST learn to budget carefully and save every dime you can until you have built up a safety net. 5 years is a long time and rest assured, you will have medical expenses, a car will need maintenance or repairs, as will the house, or a multitude of other expenses that you need to be prepared for. Gifts will seem a huge waste of money when your septic tank is spewing feces everywhere and you have no way to pay to fix it!

Believe me, your 2-year-old won't know the difference between a $50 gift or a $5 gift. The 8-year-old is old enough to receive an allowance and learn to save up his own money for what he wants, while receiving small token gifts on holidays. My 7-year-old gets $7 a month and has become quite the little saver. My hubby asked him the other day if he wanted to spend some of his allowance and go to the movies with daddy and he said "no, I want to save my allowance to buy a new game." So they skipped the movie and my little man is slowly saving up for a new Mario Wii game, which I'm sure he will appreciate all the more for having bought it himself. My 5-year-old hasn't quite learned yet, he spends his $5/mo on candy mostly, lol, but I'm sure he'll learn in time as well....My 2-year-old will begin receiving her allowance when she turns 5.

And FYI, Target has a HUGE 75% off toy clearance the last Thurs. of every Jan. and July. I strongly suggest you check it out from here on out. You can get everything from $100 lego sets for $25 all the way down to tons of $10 toys for only $2.50! I spent $200 last July and got $800 worth of toys that will provide an awesome Christmas AND birthdays for all 3 of my kids as well as gifts for my nieces and nephews! I save a little each month so that I have the money available when the sale hits. I normally just shop the July one because not many people know about it. I've hit it every year for the last 5 years. LOVE IT!

[MelodyAM75]

By the way, I have consulted with 2 other lawyers who have no issues with Christmas/birthday spending. They only warn about using credit cards for those expenses. I won't be using credit cards because all mine have been cut up for a while now.

[MelodyAM75]

Well, I will have to agree to disagree with those who think my Christmas budget is too much. If I were buying my kids 4-wheelers and such I would understand, but they don't have things like that. I routinely get their clothes from Ebay and my Mom finds them things at The Salvation Army thrift store all the time and that's no problem for me. I won't be buying Dollar Tree toys because those toys break within hours of getting them. Unfortunately, my parents didn't spend time with me as a child and expressed their love through gifts so I have a tendency to want to get my kids things. My parents also express love to my kids through gifts as well...my dad has only hugged my daughter once that I can remember, but he buys her dresses every month becuase she loves getting new clothes. The last time I my dad hugged me I was probably 4 and the last time I hugged my mom was when I was 19 and my older brother died in a car accident.

However, I DO spend time with my kids and hug them and show affection unlike my parents. My kids don't get toys, movies, etc. throughout the year so birthday and Christmas are special occassions. My Mom got my daughter a lot of Fisher Price dollhouse accessories she found new in packages from a thrift store so I do want to get her the $50 doll house to go with them and I know she will play with it for years to come. My 2 kids rooms are not overflowing with toys. I routinely donate things they outgrow. I try to get them only things I know they will really enjoy and play with. I plan to shop sales and use coupons, discount codes, etc. to get good deals on the things I plan to get them for Christmas. I am a thrifty shopper and never pay full price for anything, but manage to get nice things for a little bit of money. Recently got my son 2 new winter shirts (he's outgrown his clothes from last year) and my daughter a dress and two pairs of shoes (she's outgrown her winter shoes) all for about $30.00 at the mall. The things were on clearance/sale and I had store coupons. I never buy holiday decorations and such until after they go on clearance after the holidays for about 75 percent off. I know I am not a the best money manager or else I wouldn't be in debt, but to be fair a lot of my bills are medical bills left from my daughter's month long stay in the NICU when she was born 9 weeks early and from her heart surgery when she was a year old. Also, my husband works on commission and business has been slow so that has lead to problems. I am trying to get my finances under control and cut up my credit cards a few months ago before I had even considered bankrupty. I work as much as I can freelancing, but I have fibromyalgia and sometimes just can't find the energy after teaching all day, taking care of kids and doing assignments for an online class I am taking (getting another master's degree with a scholarship I won). My coworkers think I am like the energizer bunny at work, but they don't know I sometimes collalse into bed by 7pm at night. I am doing the best I can and will continue to do the best I can for my kids.

[olivies]

One word: Layaway. Then you have no problem.

[ShooFly]

Hi Melody... I agree with the others here. I know you don't really want to hear that We've all been big spenders which got us here. I think it would do you a lot of good to have a heart to heart with yourself. The things you listed that you HAD to get for your kids is not reasonable even to ME, a fellow ex-spender! Our society has us so pumped full of commercialism, and most people fall prey to it. Think about the psychology of it, it's all a money machine! Are your kids rooms currently FULL of toys and clothes, most of which they are not using? They really will learn to live better with less things. My grandmother grew up with 1 doll, and she cherrished that doll and learned to sew to make clothes for it. Then 50 years later she made my gorgeous wedding dress when I got married. You will find better things to do "together" with your time. Family time is priceless and free. So all those presents may make YOU feel like a better provider, but the kids will only remember most of it through pictures when they are all grown up. It's the TIME they will remember and the skills they learned along the way, and not so much the "things".

[Cristo]

Melody,

The thing to keep in mind is that you will have to provide your bank statements to the Trustee for the couple of months before you file and maybe until the 341. What, if anything they look at is highly dependant on the Trustee and what state you are in. I am in Maryland and really all they looked at is what my final balance was. It is nerve wracking to think that someone is combing through your statements, but how much they question varies widely. Sounds like the paralegal thinks they take a close look. To be safe, don't use your debit card at the toy store, etc. that's about the only way they would know what you are spending on, or large cash withdrawls that you can't explain what you spent it on. Maybe ask your parents for a loan of some cash and pay them back later if you really want to buy the gifts. If you file mid Nov. your 341 will be right around Christmas so that is bad timing, unfortunately.

After your confirmation I would not worry too much about the bank statements, but again your lawyer would know best on how closely things are looked at in your district.

[Pandora]

they are 8 and 2 and just want a few Zhu Zhu pets, a Fisher Price dollhouse for my daughter, Tae Kwon Do assessories for my son and skates for both of them. I don't think those items are too extravagant.

They already buy 80-90% of the kids clothes because they want to and they may have to start paying for my 3-year-old's dance class and my 9-year-olds Tae Kwon Do class if those become an issue. I feel those activities are very important because I come from a family of obese people and my kids need to be active.

Also, my son suffers from low self-esteem as a result of dealing with severe dyslexia and taking Tae Kwon Do has made a major difference in how he feels about himself. I would never take those things away from them.

I didn't get to be activites until I was a teenager and I dealt with low self-esteen and I don't want that to happen to them.

For what its worth - if you have a Dollar General or Family Dollar in your area (not a Dollar Store) - they have zhu zhu pets for about $2-3 each - as well as every other toy you can imagine; barbie, Littlest Pet shop, Nerf, skates, etc. I was in my local Family Dollar just the other day buying laundry detergent (its cheaper to get my Gain there! ) and had to go down the toy aisle on my way, seeing all the name brand toys as I passed. Tons of items for alot less $.

As far as your parents buying 90% of your childrens clothing - while that may not be an issue to you or your parents, it will be for your Ch. 13 plan unfortunately. You have to show clothing in your schedule and budget, IRS standard is $25 per person - not alloting the appropriate amounts for clothing - which is a necessity - is going to be questioned as much as someone that would allot too much. Remember you have to account for everything you pay / buy during the course of an entire year, and break it down over X amount of paydays, then budget accordingly, setting that money aside each month for bills due throughout the year.

Dance class / karate class - going to be very hard pressed to push that through with the reasoning you're using I think. While its important for children to have physical activities, its not mandatory that they be in some sort of class to do so, its considered non-essential. You might be able to get away with karate for your son given he is 8, however dance classes for a 2 year old I believe will be questioned.

Insofaras your child having low self esteem and being dyslexic, while this may sound harsh, its not meant to be - I'm playing devils advocate for a moment - your trustee may tell you that the class will not resolve your child's low self esteem issues, that is something that parents, family and friends can do on their own by positive reinforcement as well as counseling / therapy - especially since you are a teacher. We, as parents, hate to see our children suffer in any manner and would move the world and then some to alleviate anything and everything that upset, harm, or anguish our children - but throw a trustee into the mix, and they're not looking at it the same way we are. They're looking at dollar signs and creditors views - and while you may state that instead of therapy / counseling, the karate class is doing the same thing... the trustee might not see it that way.

The other question I would ask my attorney if I were you, is why are you filing Ch. 13 to begin with? If your parents are purchasing your children's clothing and any other items that are considered "needs" and not "wants" - then perhaps you actually qualify for a Ch. 7 and not a 13. ??

Some things to consider before you actually sign anything. Wishing you all the best!

[helpmeout]

I would ask an actual attorney about Christmas gifts. I can't see how they would be a problem as long as they aren't expensive. Something like a Wii would probably create an issue, but a $25 toy or outfit? I don't think so. But an attorney would be a better person to consult.

[Flamingo]

I know that I could get by with less. I already use coupons often and shop on Ebay for clothes often. I don't plan to get my kids laptops and Ipods...they are 8 and 2 and just want a few Zhu Zhu pets, a Fisher Price dollhouse for my daughter, Tae Kwon Do assessories for my son and skates for both of them. I don't think those items are too extravagant. If I can't get them, my parents or in-laws will, but I don't want to have to ask them do that. I will go without things before I have my kids wake up to find that Santa Claus forgot to stop by our house (yes, they both still believe in Santa Claus). I am sure that I can't be the only mother who wants a nice Christmas for her kids each year. I do freelance writing as a part-time job (I am a teacher, too) and this time of year I stay up late nights and work all weekend on articles so that I make money for the holidays. Is it wrong of me to bust my butt working overtime to spend the money on my kids? I have a week off at Thanksgiving and 2 weeks off at Christmas and that gives me a lot of time to work on freelance stuff. If worse comes to worse though I will just tell my parents what the kids want and they'll get it. They already buy 80-90% of the kids clothes because they want to and they may have to start paying for my 3-year-old's dance class and my 9-year-olds Tae Kwon Do class if those become an issue. I feel those activities are very important because I come from a family of obese people and my kids need to be active. Also, my son suffers from low self-esteem as a result of dealing with severe dyslexia and taking Tae Kwon Do has made a major difference in how he feels about himself. I would never take those things away from them. I didn't get to be activites until I was a teenager and I dealt with low self-esteen and I don't want that to happen to them.

Everyone has their own situation as to personal things in their lives. Filing BK and being at that point is a big life event that brings unwanted changes and while we all can come up with all the excuses we want for why we are there, being saddled with debt and trying to get out from under that debt is a big priority. It's difficult not being able to provide what one did in the past and you are extremely lucky to have such wonderful parents to help out with your children. It is also embarrassing to have to be in that position not to be able to provide your child with what they want...in the past, one would whip out the credit card and get it. Now one cannot do that and has to change their ways and learn to save for items, put things on layaway if possible or be lucky enough to have friends or family step in. The big issue is the change and how to cope with it and to learn to live on a cash only basis without the need to have something right now. It's difficult with kids and BK. They were used to getting what they want and right away and younger ones just do not understand.

Discuss your situation thoroughly with your attorney as your child's needs. Also note the trustee may question how you were able to afford their classes, etc. and may view your parents' input to help out with the kids as incoming funds to your household income.

[debee]

Do you have an attorney, Melody? It's not clear from your posts. It almost sounds like the paralegal is giving you face-to-face legal advice and the lawyer was an anonymous phone consult.

[mrskal]

I have to agree with Flamingo, sorry. It is not that you can't buy them anything, but at 8 and 2, do you really need to spend that much on them? (or at any age for that matter) I think the lessons are fine, kids need that, and you said you bought some stuff already. The dollar store can be a saving grace when it comes to kids gifts, you can get books, toys, etc...I luckily dont have small children and my daughter has learned that if she wants something, she will have to get it herself. I plan on spending $25 this year for her for X-mas and she will be the only person I buy for at all.

[Peeps]

Isn't there a risk that a trustee could look at the situation differently? If you're willing and able to work your butt off for gifts then couldn't he/she draw the conclusion that you also have the ability to work your butt off to pay old debt? Assuming you're showing the extra income from freelance work on your schedules, wouldn't that be something that might be questioned anyway? Their idea of needs/wants might differ significantly from yours.