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**indebt00** · 10-11-2010, 02:52 PM

Its not your lawyer not allowing it...its the means test...you are only allowed the amounts in the means test...a good lawyer will be able to get you extra cushion in your deductions that "are" allowable.
It doesn't matter about your income...your over the median for your state...doesn't matter where you live

ACTUAL medical costs that can be proven CAN be put in your budget...especially if you have a child with disabilities.

Yes...you will be broke and money for birthdays, gifts, etc may not be feasible. But you will find as you go along in the BK that whats important is your home/bills and stuff you NEED not stuff you WANT.

It gets better...it really does....we felt it was the best thing we ever did.

**momindebt** · 10-11-2010, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by indebt00 View Post

Its not your lawyer not allowing it...its the means test...you are only allowed the amounts in the means test...a good lawyer will be able to get you extra cushion in your deductions that "are" allowable.
It doesn't matter about your income...your over the median for your state...doesn't matter where you live

ACTUAL medical costs that can be proven CAN be put in your budget...especially if you have a child with disabilities.

Yes...you will be broke and money for birthdays, gifts, etc may not be feasible. But you will find as you go along in the BK that whats important is your home/bills and stuff you NEED not stuff you WANT.

It gets better...it really does....we felt it was the best thing we ever did.

Thanks for your post. He didn't challenge medical expenses but because those were higher we need to "cut" other expenses. He said we met the means test in our first visit but that he didn't want to have to be in court and "justify" why we need any money for entertainment or gifts, for example. Telling my 2 young children that they can't have a birthday present or a xmas present or ever go to the movies or out with friends or play sports seems so mean. Every other budget I've seen has small amounts for these expenses...I mean, we were allowed $25 in our budget for pets but nothing for the children? And, our mortgage payment is expected to go up another $300 a month due to a re-assessment of our entire village, and he acted like we'd have to "find" the money in our current budget to make that work. I'm not kidding when I say there are no extras....There is NO cushion in this budget, as nearly everything that wasn't fixed was drastically cut. Only option to buy our kids bday presents and xmas presents will be to sell small items we have or cancel cable. Kids can't even participate in most school activities anymore without paying some of the expenses due to school budgets being slashed....It hurts me the most that our kids are the ones who are going to suffer the most for this mess we are in...That is what hurts the most in all of this-that and the believe that our budget will be impossible to manage. One car breakdown (both vehicles have over 80,000 miles), or one large medical unexpected bill, or one home repair and we are toast....

**justbroke** · 10-11-2010, 03:39 PM

If your plan is un-livable, then you need to talk with your attorney. Especially if you have higher medical costs due to an illness. However, your housing costs... will fall on deaf ears. It doesn't matter that you're over-the-median. Being over-the-median doesn't allow you to be "over" the housing standard. In some locations, and with "some" attorneys, you can fight the housing allowance, if you challenge that the HUD values are wrong or the proportion established by the IRS is wrong. Not all attorneys are willing to fight that... and it's usually a losing battle anyhow.

Now, before I get upset with your attorney, are you talking about Schedule J or Means Test (Form B22C) expenses?

**momindebt** · 10-11-2010, 05:48 PM

Thanks JustBroke for the words of encouragement.

It just seems that other plans I've seen present as more realistic. Like, for example, I don't understand if the IRS allows 752 for food for our family of 4-why would you reduce it to 650 when you can still make a payment to creditors work? And, why do you voluntarily give up your tax return when they don't ask for it? And, why you reduce apparal to 100 a month when they allow 240? If he made the "pigs and hogs" comment one more time, I thought I was gonna scream! I'm being a hog because I want to be able to buy a xmas present or a bday present for my kids and still eat that month?? Because I'm worried that our cars have huge amount of miles on them and won't last 5 years? Or, because you've reduced our housing repairs budget to so low, we won't be able to maintain the house while we are under bankruptcy?

I'm honestly worried that after 5 years, where-in we permanently ruin our kids life by taking away everything they love and have no entertainment expenses at all, that we'll leave bankcruptcy worse off in some ways. Our house will be under disarray. We'll desperately need 2 "new to us" vehicles, if they even make it to 5 years and our credit will be so poor, we'll end up with high interest and thus payments. We'll defer our student loans for 5 years and return to inflated totals due to deferment interest. Our son, who won't be able to get braces when he needs them will have to have them immediatly upon leaving the plan-at a now higher rate due to inflation. And, our oldest will be headed to college with minimal 529 savings because we can't put money into his account under our plan.... Doesn't help that we live in a small city and just aren't comfortable sharing with anyone at this stage. AND, I can't even go to church and tithe because there isn't room in the budget!

Sorry....just really overwhelmed, worried, and scared....

**indebt00** · 10-11-2010, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by momindebt View Post

Thanks JustBroke for the words of encouragement.

It just seems that other plans I've seen present as more realistic. Like, for example, I don't understand if the IRS allows 752 for food for our family of 4-why would you reduce it to 650 when you can still make a payment to creditors work? And, why do you voluntarily give up your tax return when they don't ask for it? And, why you reduce apparal to 100 a month when they allow 240? If he made the "pigs and hogs" comment one more time, I thought I was gonna scream! I'm being a hog because I want to be able to buy a xmas present or a bday present for my kids and still eat that month?? Because I'm worried that our cars have huge amount of miles on them and won't last 5 years? Or, because you've reduced our housing repairs budget to so low, we won't be able to maintain the house while we are under bankruptcy?

I'm honestly worried that after 5 years, where-in we permanently ruin our kids life by taking away everything they love and have no entertainment expenses at all, that we'll leave bankcruptcy worse off in some ways. Our house will be under disarray. We'll desperately need 2 "new to us" vehicles, if they even make it to 5 years and our credit will be so poor, we'll end up with high interest and thus payments. We'll defer our student loans for 5 years and return to inflated totals due to deferment interest. Our son, who won't be able to get braces when he needs them will have to have them immediatly upon leaving the plan-at a now higher rate due to inflation. And, our oldest will be headed to college with minimal 529 savings because we can't put money into his account under our plan.... Doesn't help that we live in a small city and just aren't comfortable sharing with anyone at this stage. AND, I can't even go to church and tithe because there isn't room in the budget!

Sorry....just really overwhelmed, worried, and scared....

hang in there.....and I think tithing is deductible....our lawyer was able to put in $50 month for donations.....so worth putting down

**justbroke** · 10-11-2010, 06:32 PM

Sounds like you and your attorney need a heart to heart. A Chapter 13 Plan should not be punitive at all. Perhaps there are some things that I'm missing, but I claimed the full amount on my Chapter 13. However, there are Districts where the Trustee sets up "standards" and if you exceed those, they pounce. However, an attorney, that you have a decent fee agreement with, should work for you! This can cost more, but sometimes you have to say no.

**debee** · 10-11-2010, 06:48 PM

I am ignorant about ch13, but what I don't get is this: if you only owe 50k and will have to repay 80%, couldn't you just sell your rv and make your own beefed-up creditor payments without going ch13 at all? It seems for your income level, 50k is not so big since you are having to repay so much of it anyway.

I wonder if you are in a position to pull back and rethink the whole thing. Maybe rethink the whole thing with a free consultation in a new lawyer's office.

**momofthree** · 10-11-2010, 06:56 PM

Why did you decide on this attorney? Did you interview others? Have you already paid him a retainer? You want an attorney who is going to fight for your, not side with the creditors, or just write in unliveable numbers because he doesn't want to have to justify the real figures.

Interview other attorneys. You'll probably want to buy at least 1 new car before filing as well, which will serve to lower your DMI and lessen your chances of having a major mechanical expense in the course of your bk.

As far as money for birthdays, extra-curricular activities, etc. those really are extras. You should be allowed a small recreational budget (on schedule J), but it most likely won't be enough for your kids lessons and such. That said, you will learn to trim down other areas to make room for them in your day-to-day budget (your personal budget that the court never sees ;) ). For example, you may find that those activities ARE more important to you than cable tv. You may find that buying used clothes off of ebay isn't such a bad thing. You'll find ways to make it work if you really want it to.

You should work closely with your attorney (IMO, NOT the one you spoke with today!) to create a workable budget that allows you to cover all of your expenses comfortably--including annual expenditures. Making it work, however, is entirely up to you. If the budget is created accurately, you will have extra money each month. You need to realize, however, that it is money that is needed a few months down the line and NEEDS to be saved accordingly. You will be given a car maintenance budget, but you shouldn't need car maintenance each month. Same for home maintenance & medical. It is imperative that this money be set aside for it's intended purpose. It will be very tempting to continue to live above your means, but your plan is sure to fail if you don't learn to pinch pennies and save every extra dime available.

Definitely seek alternate counsel--you should at least be allowed the IRS standards. But it sounds like you also need to change your mindset. You're heading into bankruptcy. Time to cut out the extras, including lessons for the kids, college savings, and possibly even luxuries like cable tv and expensive cell phone packages.

**sharina** · 10-11-2010, 07:32 PM

have you asked your attorney if things would be better with a proposal to pay back 100%? If you are already at 80%....100% case should allow more cush in your budget depending of course on practice in your area. Personally, I see no reason to have to give up lessons for your children, especially paying a high percentage of debt back -if 80% is accurate and includes that same percentage to unsecureds. You should not have to live like a pauper and pay back a high percentage. Yes, you will have to be frugal no matter what though

**sheilaE** · 10-11-2010, 08:45 PM

So reading this makes me absolutely ill! I don't get it-why is it that they are purposely putting you in a plan that is definitely going to fail? And they wonder why 80% of 13's fail??? What happens if one of your kids gets sick and you need to get them to the doctor, pay your co-pay AND then pay for the meds? I'd be ready to go to war with your atty if he thinks you can survive on this plan. I don't mean to be so depressing...I feel for you because we're filing the end of the month-going into this with 3 children, so what I want to hear is that other families that are filing 13 are getting by just fine-but this plan is not fine...this plan made me feel depressed-as I'm sure you're feeling as well

Please keep us posted.

**newbie2** · 10-12-2010, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by sheilaE View Post

So reading this makes me absolutely ill! I don't get it-why is it that they are purposely putting you in a plan that is definitely going to fail? And they wonder why 80% of 13's fail??? What happens if one of your kids gets sick and you need to get them to the doctor, pay your co-pay AND then pay for the meds? I'd be ready to go to war with your atty if he thinks you can survive on this plan. I don't mean to be so depressing...I feel for you because we're filing the end of the month-going into this with 3 children, so what I want to hear is that other families that are filing 13 are getting by just fine-but this plan is not fine...this plan made me feel depressed-as I'm sure you're feeling as well

Please keep us posted.

Sheila, please don't file at the end of the month unless you know you have a workable budget. I also suggest that you sit down with another attorney for a 2nd opinion. You're setting yourself up for a very stressful 5 years unless you know you can make it work.

**Flamingo** · 10-12-2010, 02:38 AM

A plan will not be confirmed if the trustee believes the debtors will fail. What the issue is with many Chapter 13 filers (as it was with us but we waded the waters), it is so hard to give up the past lifestyle of having it when you wanted it or using cash/credit for items that are really not needed, keeping up with the Jones, etc., etc. that is extremely hard to fathom for many. It is tough to go from buying designer to looking for items in thrift shops or learning to use coupons and shop discount/bulk. And hard to give up the luxury vehicle. Once one can get over that hurdle and actually learn to budget and learn how to allow themselves to control money and not let it control them, is when the turn around occurs and usually Chapter 13 tossees that right in you face. I have always stated in this foroum that a Chapter 13 is the best budget teacher in the world and those that get through it carry on important lessons the rest of their lives. We survived, it wasn't easy, I cried several nights during those years but you learn to get tough and find ways to do it. We kept our home that way and we are sitting quite nice 4 years after discharge. Let the old lifestyle go and don't worry what others think and learn to budget and cut back and not eat out every night, vacation in your back yard and have fun with family/friends locally. Believe it or not, it works out and people do get through it.

**Pandora** · 10-12-2010, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by momindebt View Post

We met with our attorney today and he slashed many items in our budget, which seem so unrealistic! I get that we can't keep our RV since we aren't paying back 100% (we have to pay back about 80%). BUT, he said we couldn't have IRS standard of 750 for food (he lowered it to $650 for our family of 4), couldn't budget anything for gifts or entertainment, and couldn't include $120 for Housing repairs and maintenance, instead "allowing" $50. We also cannot budget anything for our young children (no lessons, sports, school supplies, or school lunches).

It seems like we are being set-up to fail....No birthday gifts or xmas presents for 5 years? No sports? $50 a month to maintain a house that is 80 years old? And, no entertainment at all?

Thoughts? Just scared here....

Wow. I'd run from your attorney - he/she seems very unreasonable at best. You absolutely should be allowed the IRS standards for a family of 4 for food expenses. You should get recreation - its in the schedules and allowed - we are a family of 3 and get the following:

Recreation: $60; pets $40; Home maintenance $70; car maintenance: $70; gas money $250; school lunches: $40; soccer/activities: $45; birthday/xmas $50; medical $300 ($60 per person is IRS standard) and can go up if you have documentation to prove your expenses (which we have done); clothing $75, Food $500, Cell phone: $149; Internet: $85; Electric: $245; Home phone: $70... AND - we also get $20 for Netflix, separate from our "recreation" fund of $60 a month so...

There is alot more that we get to claim - all necessary and reasonable expenses. Braces are medical and I'm not sure why your lawyer is saying they are not allowed ? I'd be pissed if my lawyer told us our child couldnt have braces because we are filing Ch. 13! And given your children have disabilities - your medical should be allowed to be what it is (dont forget to include your yearly deductibles as you have to pay those).

As for the RV - if you couldnt exempt it, then you could pay it back into the plan if you own it outright or continue paying on it if you still owe on it. We were able to keep ours by paying the value of it into our plan (it was paid off). That makes no sense to me.... Ch. 13 is voluntary and you should be allowed to keep your items so long as you pay for them if you cannot exempt them and your income can support it.

So your lawyer is proposing 80% - which would be about 40K if you rolled in legal fees and trustee fees - which would make your payment roughly $600-$670 a month. Is that ALL of your disposable income after deductions and expenses? Are you trying to strip a 2nd mortgage or behind on your taxes / mortgage? Is that why you're filing? For 50K I think I'd try to work it out before I filed, especially if you have to pay back nearly 40K of it.....

Something doesnt sound right with your lawyer...

**CCB35** · 10-12-2010, 05:00 AM

He also may know how the trustee operates.He may know that the trustee will challenge you on those items beforehand .He may be trying to tell you thats the way the trustee likes it.
funny story when i went to my hearing the trustee had a lap top with a "life is good"sticker
i hate that sticker now i cringe everytime i see it

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