Question regarding Schedule B and C - lawyer says 1 thing I read another who's right?

[Pandora]

hi. received amended schedule C from my lawyer due to errors on his part, however I have concerns that he hasnt really answered and I dont know if he's right or if I'm right.

On Schedule B - it says to list all property, and he has - however on our Schedule C, there is our Camper that is missing, its not listed anywhere on it. Its paid off and he was told long ago that we were not going to give this up. Upon asking him yesterday, he said that we were over in exemptions (which caused the amended schedule C to begin with, and was his error) so now there is an additional $6K in non-exempt items that used to be exempt (our checking account, taxes and a few other things) - as well as he said he did not have to list the Camper on Schedule C because we had no more exemptions, so he excluded it.

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but...if its on Schedule B, isnt it supposed to be on Schedule C? He claims the trustee will not take it even if its not on Schedule C - I say he's wrong, that it should have been included and he did not let us know he excluded it. He got pretty nasty with me so I gave it right back to him, I'm not a child and have questions as to why things were done without my knowledge or consent. He says just because its not on Schedule C, it was included in assets for Chapter 7 test, so its included in the payback amount (What?) how can that be if its NOT on Schedule C? I've ran the numbers from Schedule C and the difference between the exemptions and non-exempt amounts for those is exactly 30K (then add in trustee fees and lawyer fees) - and it comes up with what he has, BUT - the camper isnt listed anywhere.... so... it's what... non-existent? I think the amended Schedule C is going to get kicked back again by the Trustee for not having the camper listed; lawyer says Nope, you get to keep it even if I didnt include it. ???

So, the question remains - if our original assets were 30K, then he went over exemptions by $6K - and excluded the camper (valued at another 7K) - isnt that going to raise the assets and payback by 13K, therefore also raising the monthly payment to the trustee? We already had to amend all the schedules, and Schedule I & J as well; Schedule J leaves less than $550 per month, yet our payments are set at 600 - and if I'm right, and the trustee adds the camper and the other mistake, doesnt that bring the total asset value up by that amount and our payment goes up as well? Not confirmed as of yet due to errors on the Schedule C. He says no - but from what I've read, everything else reads differently, and he apparently doesnt think he should be questioned at all. God complex or something... who knows. That trustee is not going to just let the camper slide...

Help set the record straight for me please.

[SMinGA]

By your calculations, do you have $6k non-exempt or $13k non-exempt? Either way, if you own the camper I can't think of a reason why it should not be listed on your schedules. But if there is no exemption to cover it, or part of it, it would not have an exemption claimed.

Your non-exempt assets set the minimum that must be paid to unsecured. I think you said that your I less J shows $550 but you need a plan payment of $600? Do you have anything other than regular unsecured debt to pay in the plan? Mortgage arrears, vehicles being paid thru the plan, atty fees? If your trustee fee is at the max of 10%, that leaves $540 x 60 = $32,400 for atty fees, arrears, etc. etc. After those things there must be enough to pay the unsecured at least the value of non-exempt assets.

[Pandora]

this is where the confusion comes in. Okay - before my schedule c showed in column (exempt property) $85K the other column showed approx 109K ( I think thats what it was) with attorney fees and trustee fee of 10% (per attorney) it totaled like 36K (my mistake, I thought it was 30, I forgot the attorney fees and trustee fees).

Trustee said exemptions were over by 6K - which caused the amended schedule C.

Lawyer sent it to me, changing column 1 to $78K and column 2 stayed the same.

On neither the org. sched C nor the amended (that I just discovered the other day) - our camper was not listed, but it should have been as this was to be exempt since we own it. He chose not to list it which we just discovered yesterday.

He claims the error of the 6K overage doesnt come into play because our liquidated assets if we sold to Trusttee total X and it cannot go over that to pay back to creditors - HOWEVER - my concern is that he excluded the camper - so doesnt that bring up our assets by the value of the camper, thereby raising our % payback?

It should have been included in Schedule C - even if exemptions were over - correct? He should have put in as 0 in column 1 but the full value of it in colunm 2 on Schedule C.....therefore making the total of $109 raise to $116...right?

THAT is the concern we have - as it will cause us to either have to sell it to the trustee since we cannot afford to pay back more than what we are, our DMI doesnt allow for it. And.. I say the lawyer screwed up here - he says he's right. The trustee isnt going to take this camper... if I have to borrow the dang money and have my mom get it back, its ours - we paid it off 17 months ago and it was supposed to be exempt.

ETA: no mortgage arrears... nothing past due - we are to strip the 2nd, its the whole reason we filed - no other bills, and yes the trustee fee of 6.4% and the attorney fees are included in that.

[Pandora]

alright just pulled my schedules - my numbers were off.. sorry... been a nightmare these past few days.

Here is the numbers before and after amended:

Org.

Column 1 $84994.81 column 2 $108153.81

difference of $ $23159 - yet trustee stated we were over by 6225 so needed amending (and the camper isnt listed at all anywhere)

Amended:

78769.81 108153.81

$29384 difference because of the $6225 mistake by lawyer. What was taken out to make up the difference was our tax returns, our checking and savings account, and a vehicle exemption along with a few tidbit $20 items of personal property.


again camper isnt listed.

Add in lawyer fees and trustee fees, it brings it to 36K - NOT including camper ( so says lawyer) but if you do the math - and take the 29384, add in camper of 7K plus attorney fees of 2500, plus trustee fee of 10% (which we'll go with for now because attorney based it off of that)...it comes out to $42251 NOT 36K as the attorney says.

I say the value of the camper is supposed to be in there, which will raise the payback number.... lawyer says no - that the 29384 wont change even though the camper is non-exempt and not listed. How can that be if its not listed anywhere as an asset?

make more sense now?

[SMinGA]

Schedule C is for exemptions, right? If no exemptions for the camper then I don't know that it goes on there. (Owning it does not mean its exempt.)

The value of non-exempt assets would show on the summary for the schedules, I believe. Total Real Property + Total Personal Property, less property claimed as exempt, less secured loans against the property.

Probably no harm in listing it on C with $0 as the value of claimed exemption, but it does not seem required to list items that are not exempt on the schedule where you claim exemptions.

[SMinGA]

Don't add in the TT fee as a set as its a % of what you pay in. It is not a set amount, so calculating it as a fixed fee can mess up your #s. You don't add 10% to the total paid to creditors, you deduct 10% from what you pay in and the rest (90%) goes to creditors.

I think the confusion is you assume that schedule C is to show the total of non-exempt assets? I don't think that is the intent of the form. It is where you claim your exemptions. You did say the camper is on schedule B, right? So you're not hiding it - and I think you're right that it should be factored into the minimum to unsecured.

So you need to pay ($29,384 + $7,000 camper + $2500 atty fees) / .90.

Dividing by .90 accounts for the trustee fee. Comes out to $720.07 monthly by my calculations.

[Pandora]

Thanks SMinGA - thats what I thought..

So now to try to explain this yet again to the friggin attorney who thinks he's right...yet he's not.

Good god almighty... WHY do we pay these people who are supposed "experts" then have to double check their work behind them?! I'm so peeved right now that he's not listening and has the "I'm right because I went to law school" mentality.

Guess he'll owe me a massive apology when this amended schedule gets kicked back AGAIN because of his error. If my camper gets taken, I'm gonna be more than a bit P.O'd here....due to his negligence.

[SMinGA]

My guess is it will get kicked back as well. I think we've all come across attorneys who seem to think highly of themselves, like it would be inconceivable that us lowly BK filers could actually do a little research and know a little bit about the process.

You mentioned that your schedule I less J = $550. Will you be able to cut back in some areas to make the higher payment? If not, are there any assets that you could give up to balance things out?

Good god almighty... WHY do we pay these people who are supposed "experts" then have to double check their work behind them?! I'm so peeved right now that he's not listening and has the "I'm right because I went to law school" mentality.

Guess he'll owe me a massive apology when this amended schedule gets kicked back AGAIN because of his error. If my camper gets taken, I'm gonna be more than a bit P.O'd here....due to his negligence.