Dogs and the trustee

[mhsaltz]

We have four dogs as part of our household. The financial burden is tremendous but these dogs are family. We rescued three of them from very difficult circumstances and we have had our our oldest dog for close to ten years. I believe the expenses incurred resulting from the dogs have been a contributing factor to the financial difficulties that we have. I would imagine each trustee is different in his/her approach to things as each person in the world has different views on things. Our attorney advised us that the trustee will not consider this in calculating our Chapter 13 payment. Does anyone have a similar situation or at least an opinion based on their experiences with trustees?

[SMinGA]

I think it will depend on your overall expenses in terms of your schedule J expenses compared to the IRS standards. If you tend to be under the max in food, clothing, etc. then you're less likely to get grief about the misc type items. On the other hand, if you max out in every category your trustee is more likely to fight the misc. items.

Ultimately you have to figure out what is best for your family including the pets. If you can't afford to give them the care & attention they need, then they may be better off if you could find another home for 1-2 of them.

[Lissy]

Well, I have 2 large dogs and 2 cats. I wouldn't say they are directly responsible for my financial difficulties, but even routine care can be expensive. I'm not sure what you mean by the trustee not considering your pets as part of your payment. Are you asking about routine care, such as food, heartworm prevention, annual vaccines, etc.? Or do you have special needs dogs that require more care?

I was worried about being able to deduct what I spend on routine care as an expense. I read lots of posts here saying no TT would allow it, as having pets is not a necessity. I originally gave my atty a figure of $150 per month and when I reviewed my draft petition, I saw that he had reduced it to $50 per month. When I questioned him, he said he thought the TT would say that was too much. But my thought was, let the TT tell me no. So I insisted he put it back to $150. I was all ready to show proof that I have one dog with allergies, saved my receipts for their annual check ups to show how much it cost, etc. The TT never said a word about it. Maybe I just got lucky, I don't know. I think if you have special needs dogs that require expensive medication each month or something like that, you could have a problem, but my advice is to just report your actual expenses and let them tell you no.

[kinnari416]

So far my trustee thinks that the judge might have an issue with my monthly $600 that i spend on mine. I have a dachshund who is walked twice a day for 30 mins each as he has hind leg/ back problems, medicine administered and is fed dinner all while I'm at work. The on-going rate in Manhattan for one 45 mins walk is $30 or $15 for one 30 mins walk. Usually the feeding/ meds can add another $5 to $10 on top of that which would bring it up to $35-40 a day for the ongoing rate here in Manhattan but I was able to negotiate it to $30 flat per day for five days a week which adds up to $600 a month. It is what it is. Without this service I woudn't be able to work and make the money to pay the trustee. I am hoping that there won't be an issue either and am bracing myself for it by pulling up competitive pricing within the area so the trustee/ judge know that what I'm getting is a bargain and the lowest cost I can find in order to take care of my dog. And no, I can't afford to run home during my lunch to walk him or administer meds in the middle of the day. The way I see it, this is a necessary expense in order for me to keep my job so that the trustee can get paid! I've already cut into everything else and am living bare bones for all other reasonable monthly expenses such as cable, phone etc.

[newbie2]

So far my trustee thinks that the judge might have an issue with my monthly $600 that i spend on mine. I have a dachshund who is walked twice a day for 30 mins each as he has hind leg/ back problems, medicine administered and is fed dinner all while I'm at work. The on-going rate in Manhattan for one 45 mins walk is $30 or $15 for one 30 mins walk. Usually the feeding/ meds can add another $5 to $10 on top of that which would bring it up to $35-40 a day for the ongoing rate here in Manhattan but I was able to negotiate it to $30 flat per day for five days a week which adds up to $600 a month. It is what it is. Without this service I woudn't be able to work and make the money to pay the trustee. I am hoping that there won't be an issue either and am bracing myself for it by pulling up competitive pricing within the area so the trustee/ judge know that what I'm getting is a bargain and the lowest cost I can find in order to take care of my dog. And no, I can't afford to run home during my lunch to walk him or administer meds in the middle of the day. The way I see it, this is a necessary expense in order for me to keep my job so that the trustee can get paid! I've already cut into everything else and am living bare bones for all other reasonable monthly expenses such as cable, phone etc.

I hope you get a caring trustee. That's quite a bit of money that could be going to the creditors and unfortunately these are things that they will pick apart.

Why don't you up your other living expenses to the allowed limites (groceries, utilities, etc) to make up some of the $600 per month? That may be easier for you to do without raising the eyebrows of the trustee.

[kinnari416]

I had tried to do that originally but my attorney decided and advised it was best to put in the minimum amount for those other living expenses and show what I truly spend on the dog... plus I have receipts to show for the dog expenses that go back the past 5 years and the receipts that I do have for the living monthly expenses were small and bare bones already. If they ever asked for proof, I wouldn't be able to "pad" for such things as basic cable, phone, groceries, etc. The receipts show what they show. SO far, nothing has been said. Confirmation is in late June. The trustee and judge are more focused on my 2009 tax liability that we've had to add to the plan and also my property in CA that is under water than the dog. Fingers-crossed that the dog item isn't flagged given the high priority of the other items.

If we do have to amend again (which we probably will given hwo complex my case has become), I will push to have the attorney pad the $600 into various items.

Good luck to all with furbabies!

[newbie2]

I had tried to do that originally but my attorney decided and advised it was best to put in the minimum amount for those other living expenses and show what I truly spend on the dog... plus I have receipts to show for the dog expenses that go back the past 5 years and the receipts that I do have for the living monthly expenses were small and bare bones already. If they ever asked for proof, I wouldn't be able to "pad" for such things as basic cable, phone, groceries, etc. The receipts show what they show. SO far, nothing has been said. Confirmation is in late June. The trustee and judge are more focused on my 2009 tax liability that we've had to add to the plan and also my property in CA that is under water than the dog. Fingers-crossed that the dog item isn't flagged given the high priority of the other items.

If we do have to amend again (which we probably will given hwo complex my case has become), I will push to have the attorney pad the $600 into various items.

Good luck to all with furbabies!

Your attorney would know best how the trustee will react. It sounds like he is giving you good advice.

Good luck, I hope it all goes well for you.

[frogger]

While I totally understand the animals being "family members", they are your family members and not the trustees or your creditors.

Hopefully your lawyer can give you some good guidance and advice. I am a dog owner myself, but some of the amounts of money that are spent on animals is just insane.

I would not be very animal friendly if I were a trustee.

Sorry.

[kinnari416]

Thanks Newbie!

I hope everything works out for everyone. BK is stressful enough but when there are members of your family involved that you need to care for - kids or furkids and you're told to cut out things that prevent them from having basic care.. it kind of sucks!

I tear up everytime I look at one of the schedules where I had to list my dachshund's monetary worth - a mere $150! Even if I could adopt him out, there would be no one who would pay for that adoption fee or take him for free in this economy esp given his health - esp when they can go adopt a healthy puppy from the pound for the same amount!

[frogger]

I tear up everytime I look at one of the schedules where I had to list my dachshund's monetary worth - a mere $150!

Actually, the dog is not an asset, it is a liability.

[Exployer1234]

I have 3 rescued dogs. I spend so much money each month on meds and vet visit. I have Shar pei's and one is in heart failure, one has Epilepsy, and the last one has a condition known as FSF. I understand your concern. I have my 341 meeting on the 5/28 and I hope I have a trustee that is understanding. I had to spend last week 150 dollars. I am doing chapter 7, but I still have to spend more money than is allowed on these three dogs. I have just keep my receipts and information on there conditions. That way if I am questioned I have all the information on hand.

[NoTomatoCan]

Without this service I woudn't be able to work and make the money to pay the trustee.

As a pet owner for a rather expensive large breed dog, I can appreciate the costs. I also appreciate the love and affection one feels for their pet.

However... It is not a necessity. Over a 36 month plan your $600/mo is more than $21k and $36k for a 60 month plan. That is a lot that could go to unsecured creditors.

Emotionally you may feel like your pet is part of the family, but BK law does not.

Hopefully your trustee is understanding and allows this. I am confident that ours would not.

[horse]

I was told the same thing at my 341 hearing. I was told I didn't have a "right" to own dogs and the money I spend on them could go to my creditors. I told her out right I could not give up my dogs. Being an agoraphobic they take care of me as much as I take care of them. They are like 'uncertified' therapy dogs. We pay $250 a month for three dogs...all over 50 pounds.

Good luck to everyone facing this problem. Too bad there aren't more established dog advocates shining a light on this problem. What good comes from making a dog homeless?

[OHBOY]

Really interesting topic/thread... I too believe that & $ 600 is insane... however I also understand the emotional bond between OP and pet.

As to emotional stability there is somthing to be said...even supported (i.e.) where one can have a pet even if an Association (such as a Condo) does not permit one....that is, as long as a doctor states that the companionship is for emotional support of patient....maybe that would be one avenue to take in order to takle any possible problems in bk with the trustee over the $ 600....

HOWEVER.......I would certainly take the easy way, and pad/build up, the rest of the expenses instead of inviting trouble...

oh...should add, that my thoughts are pertaining to ONE pet dog....

[Lissy]

Without this service I woudn't be able to work and make the money to pay the trustee. I am hoping that there won't be an issue either and am bracing myself for it by pulling up competitive pricing within the area so the trustee/ judge know that what I'm getting is a bargain and the lowest cost I can find in order to take care of my dog. And no, I can't afford to run home during my lunch to walk him or administer meds in the middle of the day. The way I see it, this is a necessary expense in order for me to keep my job so that the trustee can get paid!

Believe me, I understand what your dogs mean to you, but I doubt that the typical trustee will see it that way. $600 per month is a LOT of money. And that's just to have someone walk/feed your dog 5 days a week, it doesn't even include the regular care costs of your 4 dogs. Where are you putting that on your schedules? I'm guessing your "true" monthly cost for your dogs is closer to $800 per month. If my atty thought $150 per month was a lot, I'm guessing you will have some explaining to do.

If you couldn't pay someone to walk and feed your dog, it wouldn't equate to you not being able to work. I wouldn't advise that you try that argument on the trustee. When you're bankrupt, you have to get creative. Are you saying it would cost more than $30 per day for you to run home at lunch? If so, or if you live too far away, could you get a neighbor to walk your dog? A family member or friend? What would happen if your dog didn't get walked every day, but maybe only twice per week? I don't know the entire situation, just throwing out suggestions. I wish you luck with this, I know it's added stress to worry you won't be able to provide for your furbabies.

I agree that no good comes from trustees being hard nosed about this. I volunteer for rescue and I see the extent of the pet overpopulation problem. It's been even worse the last couple of years with the economy in the state it's in, with people losing their jobs and homes. If everyone who filed for BK were forced to give up their pets, it would intensify the problem exponentially.