Chapter 13 Payment Plan

[forgotten]

due to my income being over the median income in Indiana as hubby also gets $380. a month in retirement benefits.

The median income for indiana for 2 people is $53,169.
Looks like you are at $47,560 income based on your numbers.

[olivies]

The IRS standards are pretty lenient as far as food/clothing, and transportation expenses. If you learn to shop frugally, you can end up with a very comfortable amount of extra money each month. It really is about adjusting to a cash-only lifestyle. Suddenly, what you considered "necessities" when you had credit are no longer truly necessary when you have to pay cash. It's hard at first, but once you get used to it, it's a very freeing feeling!

Not so sure about that. I think it depends on the family situation- like how far you have to drive for work, the ages of the kids, dress requirements for work/school, etc.

In our case, $478 a month does not cover gas, insurance and maintenance for our 2 vehicles. Insurance is $150 of that, and it's about to go up $100 a month with a teen driver who we are making pay the difference but if he doesn't pay it we HAVE to & he'll just lose driving privileges.
Gas is easily $60 a week for the 2 cars.
So we're already at the max, and we haven't even touched maintenance, which is currently being ignored on our vehicles out of necessity...it's going to suck living in SW Florida this summer not having a working air conditioner because it costs $2500 to repair. The other car needs brakes, $425, and 2 new tires (stupid Maxima tires are so darned expensive...that's another $210).

Even the clothing allowance- I buy walmart, target, and shop at consignment stores, but when you're clothing 6 kids and have 8 pairs of feet to provide shoes for...the generous IRS allowance doesn't cut it.

[forgotten]

Even the clothing allowance- I buy walmart, target, and shop at consignment stores, but when you're clothing 6 kids and have 8 pairs of feet to provide shoes for...the generous IRS allowance doesn't cut it.

Food and clothing for 8 people is $1,726/mo - $20,712/year. 16 pairs of shoes a year @ $50/pair = $800, which leaves you $19,912 or $1659/mo for food and other clothes.

[momofthree]

Not so sure about that. I think it depends on the family situation- like how far you have to drive for work, the ages of the kids, dress requirements for work/school, etc.

In our case, $478 a month does not cover gas, insurance and maintenance for our 2 vehicles. Insurance is $150 of that, and it's about to go up $100 a month with a teen driver who we are making pay the difference but if he doesn't pay it we HAVE to & he'll just lose driving privileges.
Gas is easily $60 a week for the 2 cars.
So we're already at the max, and we haven't even touched maintenance, which is currently being ignored on our vehicles out of necessity...it's going to suck living in SW Florida this summer not having a working air conditioner because it costs $2500 to repair. The other car needs brakes, $425, and 2 new tires (stupid Maxima tires are so darned expensive...that's another $210).

Even the clothing allowance- I buy walmart, target, and shop at consignment stores, but when you're clothing 6 kids and have 8 pairs of feet to provide shoes for...the generous IRS allowance doesn't cut it.

Why do you only have an allowance of $478 for 2 cars? It varies by region, but here in the west region, we get $978/mo for ownership expense and $422 for operating costs. That's a whopping $1400 a month for auto expenses.

And like the pp mentioned, you get $1726/mo for a family of 8 for food/clothing.

Between the 2, that's $3126 that you're allowed to spend on just those 3 expenses each month! I realize I don't have a family of 8 (we're a family of 5), but that sounds quite liberal to me.

[Universal]

Maybe that wasn't why we didn't qualify for a 7; but I am sure it was worked around so that future, and hoped for, unemployment, future and soon small retirement, and income tax returns would be free and clear for us to keep without creating any change in payout. Could well be that I am mistaken about many things as I get very nervous when we have to meet w/ atty., but I am have a connection w/ this atty. and feel sure the atty. is doing the best that can be done in our interest. Still doesn't mean I like it though.

[klandsb]

Every case scenario is different. First off , everyone needs a good attorney and seems to me that they are hard to find & very busy if u find one. Second, dont just run the numbers yourself & freak out with what you come up with. Free consultations are only as good as what u get for free .. Until the attorney has all your figures he cant possibly tell u what your pmt w/be. I visited 3 attorneys for free consults and got 3 different figures on payback. I also feel luck has a little to do with it in terms of where your located at as every district seems to run things differently and every trustee seems to be different also...
I am very, very fortunate to have a livable plan. Not alot extra and counting pennies sometimes before payday but am making it work .. Its been a tough transition going from credit cards to cash only but it was the right move in every way possible. My main goal right now is to try and create a slush fund for emergencies.
This site has been my life rope in times of complete stress & confusion about the entire process...

[olivies]

Why do you only have an allowance of $478 for 2 cars? It varies by region, but here in the west region, we get $978/mo for ownership expense and $422 for operating costs. That's a whopping $1400 a month for auto expenses.

And like the pp mentioned, you get $1726/mo for a family of 8 for food/clothing.

Between the 2, that's $3126 that you're allowed to spend on just those 3 expenses each month! I realize I don't have a family of 8 (we're a family of 5), but that sounds quite liberal to me.

Reading from my B22C:
We have $402 local standards for vehicle operating expenses...and yes, that's for 2 cars.

We get $489 ownership expense for our 1 car that is in my mom's name, loan is hers, she is letting us use the car and we make the $305 payment for her and pay all insurance and costs.

Our other vehicle payment is in our name and included in plan and more than the allowed ownership expense so we get $0 allowance for that one.

Standards for food, apparel and services, housekeeping, personal care, misc: $2418. So this covers pretty much...everything. LOL. Our paralegal did a "really?" when we told her we spend an average of $80 a month on haircuts. When I explained to her that if we each go for haircuts every 6 weeks, at $15 a cut (and you know that my daughters and I pay more because they always charge women more) that's $1,000 a year on just haircuts..so yeah, $80 a month. Drycleaning is another $80 a month for DH's suits. Carpets cleaned 4x a year (a must w/ 6 kids and beige carpeting) at $289 each cleaning is another $100 a month. Lawn cutting (our responsibility per our lease) $90 a month.

In my region a family of 5 or more is given housing expenses of $1049, and our rent (which is modest and reasonable) is $1725.

So...when it's the numbers you have to work with, it's not necessarily liberal.

[momofthree]

Reading from my B22C:
We have $402 local standards for vehicle operating expenses...and yes, that's for 2 cars.

We get $489 ownership expense for our 1 car that is in my mom's name, loan is hers, she is letting us use the car and we make the $305 payment for her and pay all insurance and costs.

Our other vehicle payment is in our name and included in plan and more than the allowed ownership expense so we get $0 allowance for that one.

Standards for food, apparel and services, housekeeping, personal care, misc: $2418. So this covers pretty much...everything. LOL. Our paralegal did a "really?" when we told her we spend an average of $80 a month on haircuts. When I explained to her that if we each go for haircuts every 6 weeks, at $15 a cut (and you know that my daughters and I pay more because they always charge women more) that's $1,000 a year on just haircuts..so yeah, $80 a month. Drycleaning is another $80 a month for DH's suits. Carpets cleaned 4x a year (a must w/ 6 kids and beige carpeting) at $289 each cleaning is another $100 a month. Lawn cutting (our responsibility per our lease) $90 a month.

In my region a family of 5 or more is given housing expenses of $1049, and our rent (which is modest and reasonable) is $1725.

So...when it's the numbers you have to work with, it's not necessarily liberal.

If you re-read my initial post, you'll see that I wrote:

"If you learn to shop frugally, you can end up with a very comfortable amount of extra money each month. It really is about adjusting to a cash-only lifestyle. Suddenly, what you considered "necessities" when you had credit are no longer truly necessary when you have to pay cash. It's hard at first, but once you get used to it, it's a very freeing feeling!"

This is where the frugality comes into play. Buy yourself a pair of hairclippers ($25 at Costco for a nice set that even comes with an instructional dvd) and do all the haircuts yourself. Mow your own lawn, clean your own carpets. You could buy your own carpet cleaner for the price you pay for 1 cleaning. Put your older kids to work for you, pay them a small sum to do it each time if you don't want to. Since you have these listed as "necessities," I'd bet there's a whole lot of other "fat" in your budget that you could realistically cut if you REALLY wanted to.

Also, a great source for cutting back on your grocery budget is http://hotcouponworld.com/forums/index.php It can be overwhelming at first, but start with the "getting started, couponing basics." I literally save at least 50% on our groceries every single month using coupons--AND we're on a gluten-free dairy free diet, which doesn't come cheap. You may be surprised how much you can cut back on! For example, you should never ever have to pay for toothpaste, shampoo, cold meds, deodorant, razors, etc. Even with a family of 8. You can get all of that free. I literally have to give stuff away every month because I have so much of it that I know our family of 5 won't be able to use it all in the next few years, so I give it to family, friends, or our local food pantry.

That is lousy about your transportation expense though, especially since I'm sure with such a large family, your options are limited when it comes to vehicles.

edited to add: they should also adjust your rent expense for you to your actual rent! You are a family of 8 for crying out loud! Of course you need to spend a bit more on rent. Now that I think about it, that's probably where a lot of your grocery budget ends up going--to your rent payment, and that is just WRONG!

[olivies]

If you re-read my initial post, you'll see that I wrote:

"If you learn to shop frugally, you can end up with a very comfortable amount of extra money each month. It really is about adjusting to a cash-only lifestyle. Suddenly, what you considered "necessities" when you had credit are no longer truly necessary when you have to pay cash. It's hard at first, but once you get used to it, it's a very freeing feeling!"

This is where the frugality comes into play. Buy yourself a pair of hairclippers ($25 at Costco for a nice set that even comes with an instructional dvd) and do all the haircuts yourself. Mow your own lawn, clean your own carpets. You could buy your own carpet cleaner for the price you pay for 1 cleaning. Put your older kids to work for you, pay them a small sum to do it each time if you don't want to. Since you have these listed as "necessities," I'd bet there's a whole lot of other "fat" in your budget that you could realistically cut if you REALLY wanted to.

Also, a great source for cutting back on your grocery budget is http://hotcouponworld.com/forums/index.php It can be overwhelming at first, but start with the "getting started, couponing basics." I literally save at least 50% on our groceries every single month using coupons--AND we're on a gluten-free dairy free diet, which doesn't come cheap. You may be surprised how much you can cut back on! For example, you should never ever have to pay for toothpaste, shampoo, cold meds, deodorant, razors, etc. Even with a family of 8. You can get all of that free. I literally have to give stuff away every month because I have so much of it that I know our family of 5 won't be able to use it all in the next few years, so I give it to family, friends, or our local food pantry.

That is lousy about your transportation expense though, especially since I'm sure with such a large family, your options are limited when it comes to vehicles.

edited to add: they should also adjust your rent expense for you to your actual rent! You are a family of 8 for crying out loud! Of course you need to spend a bit more on rent. Now that I think about it, that's probably where a lot of your grocery budget ends up going--to your rent payment, and that is just WRONG!

We are pretty frugal. We pay the lawn guy because we are in SW FL and the house we rent is on almost an acre- between the heat (with the exception of this time of year) and the fire ants... We have a used push mower we bought for $50. DH used it twice when we first moved in and said no way could the kids do it, so we hired a lawn guy. Still, it saves us $20 net off the rent (which initially included lawn service, we negotiated to take it on ourselves and save $110 a month- the price the homeowner was paying for service- thinking we actually would be doing it ourselves).

The carpet cleaner- we have tried renting the Rug Doctor. We also bought a machine (which broke just outside of warranty). For us it's a time thing- it took 2 hours just to do the living room/dining room combo.

Thanks for the coupon site. I'll check that one out. I am able to save on groceries by shopping sales, using store coupons combined with manuf. coupons, etc. BOGO sales are lifesavers. I love going to CVS and getting extra bucks, because then it's like "woohoo...I get free milk or diapers this week!". LOL I make a game out of trying to get a good dinner cheap- I scored yesterday with 3 packs of brand name tortillas for 75 cents! Chicken is in the freezer already, just need the cheese and sourcream and we have super cheap enchiladas! Our average dinner for a family of 8 costs $15-sometimes way less, sometimes a little more- I think that's pretty good.

We've started making our own laundry soap...super cheap, and we do loads of laundry. Also our own dishwasher detergent...still tweaking that recipe. Use vinegar and water to clean most things, to avoid buying lots of cleaners. We quit buying paper towels months ago, and instead I spent $15 in Walmart's automotive section for 24 microfiber towels which are perfect for keeping in the kitchen for spills and things. I buy 1 2L bottle of soda on the weekend (for when we make pizza on Friday), otherwise it's milk or water...I don't spend $ on juices or soft drinks. I used to enjoy my lattes at Starbucks...now that's a special date night treat, if we get it, and I just brew regular coffee at home (saves on calories too!). All the usual, or not so usual, household cut backs.

I am sure there is more we can cut back on. I'm always on the lookout for something. But you are right- the rent cuts into our grocery and clothing budget. We're hoping to have our attorney modify that, fight for it if she needs to. We're also looking for a cheaper rent, which we could do and save a a couple hundred $ a month if we move to a different town- which we're not opposed to. We're just trying to figure out how to save for a new security deposit and when we could possibly do that (our lease is up in 6months).

[contemplate]

Pete42,
So have you filed yet? We also make too much $ now that we are both working. Unfortunately, our debt accumulated for years while we were on 1 income and we are living check to check. We would probably be in a similar situation, if we filed. We would likely be in a 100% payment plan. Yet, I don't know how long it would take to pay down the debt on our own. (Certainly more than 5 years.) Many of the credit cards have raised rates for no reason over the years (no late payments.) Some days it feels like they are trying to push people into bankruptcy. What a difficult decision. If you haven't filed, good luck with your decision. If you have filed, I am curious if you regret it?

[momofthree]

We are pretty frugal. We pay the lawn guy because we are in SW FL and the house we rent is on almost an acre- between the heat (with the exception of this time of year) and the fire ants... We have a used push mower we bought for $50. DH used it twice when we first moved in and said no way could the kids do it, so we hired a lawn guy. Still, it saves us $20 net off the rent (which initially included lawn service, we negotiated to take it on ourselves and save $110 a month- the price the homeowner was paying for service- thinking we actually would be doing it ourselves).

The carpet cleaner- we have tried renting the Rug Doctor. We also bought a machine (which broke just outside of warranty). For us it's a time thing- it took 2 hours just to do the living room/dining room combo.

Thanks for the coupon site. I'll check that one out. I am able to save on groceries by shopping sales, using store coupons combined with manuf. coupons, etc. BOGO sales are lifesavers. I love going to CVS and getting extra bucks, because then it's like "woohoo...I get free milk or diapers this week!". LOL I make a game out of trying to get a good dinner cheap- I scored yesterday with 3 packs of brand name tortillas for 75 cents! Chicken is in the freezer already, just need the cheese and sourcream and we have super cheap enchiladas! Our average dinner for a family of 8 costs $15-sometimes way less, sometimes a little more- I think that's pretty good.

We've started making our own laundry soap...super cheap, and we do loads of laundry. Also our own dishwasher detergent...still tweaking that recipe. Use vinegar and water to clean most things, to avoid buying lots of cleaners. We quit buying paper towels months ago, and instead I spent $15 in Walmart's automotive section for 24 microfiber towels which are perfect for keeping in the kitchen for spills and things. I buy 1 2L bottle of soda on the weekend (for when we make pizza on Friday), otherwise it's milk or water...I don't spend $ on juices or soft drinks. I used to enjoy my lattes at Starbucks...now that's a special date night treat, if we get it, and I just brew regular coffee at home (saves on calories too!). All the usual, or not so usual, household cut backs.

I am sure there is more we can cut back on. I'm always on the lookout for something. But you are right- the rent cuts into our grocery and clothing budget. We're hoping to have our attorney modify that, fight for it if she needs to. We're also looking for a cheaper rent, which we could do and save a a couple hundred $ a month if we move to a different town- which we're not opposed to. We're just trying to figure out how to save for a new security deposit and when we could possibly do that (our lease is up in 6months).

To the OP: Sorry to thread hi-jack

I just HAVE to say that CVS is the best store EVER!!!! lol. Love being paid to shop.

I play a game with myself to try to keep dinners to $5 or less (of course, we're a family of 5 and live in Cali where fresh produce and meat is fairly inexpensive). And school lunches to $1.25 each (brown bag).

Sounds like you're definitely on the right track though, but check out the couponing website. Just last night, I got paid $6 to buy 12 bottles of Motrin PM at Walgreens, which meant free laundry detergent (Purex 3-in-1 sheets with a BOGO coupie).

I certainly don't blame you for paying a gardener in your situation, for sure!

I wish you luck on getting your rent adjusted, that's rough.

[JEM]

The carpet cleaner- we have tried renting the Rug Doctor. We also bought a machine (which broke just outside of warranty). For us it's a time thing- it took 2 hours just to do the living room/dining room combo.

About 5 yrs ago we bought a Hoover Steam Vac from Sears. IIRC, it was $250-$300. And it has been GREAT. Never any problems with it and it still does an AWESOME job on the carpets. I put it out about every 2 months and do the whole house. VERY easy to use.

Just thought I'd throw out a plug for a cleaner we've been very happy with.

ETA: I agree, those Rug Doctors rentals are JUNK. We never had good luck with them. That's what led us to buying our own in the first place. LOL

[Universal]

That every case is different is important to remember. As with any other lawsuit, one minute detail makes two similar cases totally different. While we all have some similarities, that doesn't mean we will have the exact same case scenairo. But this site has been so helpful to me, and it helps to know you are not alone. Hints for living on a budget are most appreciated.

[Universal]

Attorney found some wiggle room, and filing under hardship for a lost job, making the payback $1,240.00 a month instead of $1,440.00 Should be filed. I'm ready. Can't get near making the last payment until we've got the 1st payment made.