Do Trustees/Courts question expenses?

[helpmeout]

Are you a smoker yourself? You need to understand that people who smoke have areas of their brain that are altered, they are addicted, its just not that easy without assistance. Smoking is a disease that would need to be treated with patches, gums, counseling, which all of those would cost money too, so its a wash really. My advice is to seek treatment for smoking, move all those expenses into medical and let the court decide, the trustee can only push so much.

I am not advocating lying or hiding expenses, you are simply moving an expense item into a allowable category, trustee and IRS do not include such things, that may apply to one group of people.

And sorry to argue, but that is what my ex-attorney suggesting doing with my expenses like pet expenses. So if you are not an attorney, I suggest you back off the perjury and law talk. Where exactly in the law does it state you cannot pad expenses that do not fall into a irs/trustee category? You are right, as a trustee you should be trying to get as much out the turnip, but on the same token, a debtors attorney should be doing the exact opposite, plenty of peeps have padded budgets, go arrest them.

No, I am not a smoker. Having grown up with a smoking mother really pointed out how much I don't want to do that.

I understand that it is an addiction (one that killed a freind of mine recently when she lost her battle with lung cancer). But a Trustee really isn't going to care about that.

And a Trustee will scrutinize any expense that is over the Federal standards allowed. If they want to continue with their addiction, then they are going to have to cut back on what they spend on food. Not add the $450 to their food, clothing, or any other expense. If they list $200 as entertainment, rather than use it for entertainment, they can use it to buy cigarettes. But adding to the budget for their addiction is probably not going to work.

As for the perjury talk, well, if they claim their food is $1,010 a month (which isn't going to fly since it is way over allowable standards) knowing full well that $450 of that is for cigarettes and not food, well, that IS perjury. Whether or not the Trustee can prove it or will pursue it is irrelevant. It IS perjury. Adding $450 for an addiction isn't padding the numbers just a little. That's more than my car payment.

[tigergem]

If they want to continue with their addiction, then they are going to have to cut back on what they spend on food. Not add the $450 to their food, clothing, or any other expense. If they list $200 as entertainment, rather than use it for entertainment, they can use it to buy cigarettes. But adding to the budget for their addiction is probably not going to work.

As for the perjury talk, well, if they claim their food is $1,010 a month (which isn't going to fly since it is way over allowable standards) knowing full well that $450 of that is for cigarettes and not food, well, that IS perjury. Whether or not the Trustee can prove it or will pursue it is irrelevant. It IS perjury. Adding $450 for an addiction isn't padding the numbers just a little. That's more than my car payment.

So under your superior moral determination, how much is too much and which categories is it acceptable for the filer to pad or not? hmmm?

[helpmeout]

So under your superior moral determination, how much is too much and which categories is it acceptable for the filer to pad or not? hmmm?

@@ (eye rolling)


Whether or not one pads is none of my business. But they should at least be aware that padding IS lying to the court. It's called informed choice.

[pcn]

If the OP is talking about expenses and Schedule J, those are forward looking, considering what they WILL be spending after the debt is discharged. Looking at it from that perspective, the expenses first considered might be too low in some areas. Your atty should be able to tell you (or search here) what acceptable/allowed expenses are. If you originally estimated low based on paying your existing debt, you may be able to increase some of those forward looking expenses. As others have pointed out, you can always shift resources as needed in the future. There is no requirement to show that you spent exactly what you estimated on a specific category. The schedules look at reasonable expenses to arrive at a bottom line. If you like fine dining, you may have to take it out of your clothing expense. To be blunt, those here with some moral aversion to smoking need to get over it.

[MSbklawyer]

I'm going to play devil's advocate:

Suppose instead of cigarettes that it was food. The debtor seriously loves him some groceries. He weighs 450 lbs. His wife weighs 350. In fact, his whole family is that way. Even the kids weigh over 200 pounds. And there's 4 of them. They don't eat lavishly, they just eat a lot. So their food budget is about twice what a normal weight family would be. Can the trustee force them to lower their food budget?

[optimistic1]

I would have to agree, 450 is quite a bit to pad into other areas, you need to learn how to compromise somehow, as others have suggested, roll your own, you will get used to it. 3-5 years lateer, you can buy all the Marlboros you want, until you die from lung disease of course.

[waitinggame]

Thank u

I want to explain now. Thank you for all of the advise. First, Cigs are $6.50 a pack in PA. We both smoke. We dont do anything else. Sit at home. Anyway, I figured the amount based on that figure - times 2 ... 1 pack a day. Our paralegal said that cigs were okay... not anything else like entertainment. that is our entertainment? thanks again

[brokenymom]

$5 a pack try new york @ $8 thank god i live close to to the rez where a carton is $50 good old new york

[In2deepnow]

I smoke, in illinois it's $8 a pack. It's an addiction, it's bad but it's a condition that i am suffering. I did not add a line for that in my sch j but i padded the allowable healthcare. If people are allowed prozac, viagra, etc, i believe within limits i can find a way to expense it.

[olivies]

Are you a smoker yourself? You need to understand that people who smoke have areas of their brain that are altered, they are addicted, its just not that easy without assistance. Smoking is a disease that would need to be treated with patches, gums, counseling, which all of those would cost money too, so its a wash really. My advice is to seek treatment for smoking, move all those expenses into medical and let the court decide, the trustee can only push so much.

I had the same thought: the OP could actually enroll in a smoking cessation program through a doctor and deduct the cost of that in their health care expenses. If they fail, then hey...their budget is padded for their nicotine.

[olivies]

I smoke, in illinois it's $8 a pack. It's an addiction, it's bad but it's a condition that i am suffering. I did not add a line for that in my sch j but i padded the allowable healthcare. If people are allowed prozac, viagra, etc, i believe within limits i can find a way to expense it.

Heck, why we're at it let's all put in for our cocaine habit too. It's all the same as medically prescribed drugs for health conditions.

[LJoutWest]

MSbklawyer,

In my case I suffer from Celiac disease (no gluten) and because of that I can have no gluten in the home. The result is my family of four eats a gluten free diet and that diet does not come cheap. We spend $1300 a month and once we explained what it was for, the UST and the Trustee backed off on the food and it is in the plan if our objective to the Motion to Dismiss for our Chapter 7 fails. I'm not 450lbs though.

[LadyInTheRed]

I had the same thought: the OP could actually enroll in a smoking cessation program through a doctor and deduct the cost of that in their health care expenses. If they fail, then hey...their budget is padded for their nicotine.

And if they succeed, it makes for an even bigger fresh start!