Do Trustees/Courts question expenses?

[waitinggame]

Good Morning everyone,

I have an okay from the paralegal to file. Gave her my list of expenses, and she said okay, however, she thinks that some of them will be questioned by the court/trustee/LAWYER? Lawyer? Anyway,

Food (two people) $560.00
Entertainment, Club dues, etc. $80.00
Car expenses (two cars) $415.00
Health Care (expected expenses) $215.00
Clothing/Laundry $130.00
Cigs (two people) $450.00


Does anything sound unreasonable? I am current on house/car payments. Not including them, only cc debt and personal loan debt. I live in PA.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[MSbklawyer]

Good Morning everyone,

I have an okay from the paralegal to file. Gave her my list of expenses, and she said okay, however, she thinks that some of them will be questioned by the court/trustee/LAWYER? Lawyer? Anyway,

Food (two people) $560.00
Entertainment, Club dues, etc. $80.00
Car expenses (two cars) $415.00
Health Care (expected expenses) $215.00
Clothing/Laundry $130.00
Cigs (two people) $450.00


Does anything sound unreasonable? I am current on house/car payments. Not including them, only cc debt and personal loan debt. I live in PA.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cigarettes @ $450 a month would definitely raise a red flag here. Jesus, how much do y'all smoke? That's a car payment.

[helpmeout]

If I were a Trustee, no way would I allow any kind of an expense for cigarettes. That's most definitely not a necessary item to live. At all.

[optimistic1]

Move your cigg expenses into clothing/food/entertainment.

[helpmeout]

Move your cigg expenses into clothing/food/entertainment.

It's not food. It's not clothing. And what Trustee is going to allow $450 a month for entertainment when there are creditors to be paid? I have a family of 3, the clothing allowance, per federal standards, is $209 a month. The food allowance for a family of 3, per federal standards, is $626 a month. I think listing a food budget of $1,010 for 2 people is going to raise all kinds of red flags. I do want to make clear that I am not an attorney and I am new to this process. But if I were a Trustee and my job was to represent the creditors, then I would do everything in my power to do that. And padding other areas of the budget by $450 a month so that they can continue smoking, which is not a need in anyway, shape or form, is wrong. And it's lying. And lying to the court is called perjury.

Their best bet is to quit smoking.

[becky20]

I agree, in order to keep cigarettes you're going to have to absorb it in other areas. For example, if your trustee allows $500 a month for 2 people for food, if you can cut coupons and eat cheaply and only use $250 a month for groceries, then by all means, use that other $250 for cigarettes. If you're allowed $200 a month for entertainment but prefer not to use any of that money, use it for cigarettes. Best bet is to get ahold of your state allowable expenses and use that as a guide. Be prepared to justify anything that is more than the allowable expense, be prepared to justify any charity donations (may not need to, but be prepared anyway)...

I'm sure you've heard it all before but this might be a great opportunity to quit the smoking - $450 a month is a huge amount of money to be throwing away (not to mention the health implications) and that extra money could go towards a nice emergency fund (even a portion of it would be helpful).

[SVO351]

One of the first things we were asked was if we smoked or drank a lot. Those are 2 big things they look for it seems. Coupons for groceries is one that the pre-counseling sessions urges. It looks like you are filing yourself..risky.
Our attorney at least was able to wiggle things around to get to a number for us to qualify.

If you had children, you could have hid it in school expenses. Is you gas included anywhere? Who is to say how far you have to drive back and forth to work? I dont endorse the smoking but if you must, thats a place to hide it.

Another thing we got dinged on was our cell phone. They wanted us to get it at 100/mo. We were paying 175/mo for 2 adults and 2 teenagers. Thats another place to hide any extra if you pay under 100/mo for phone service.

[optimistic1]

And padding other areas of the budget by $450 a month so that they can continue smoking, which is not a need in anyway, shape or form, is wrong. And it's lying. And lying to the court is called perjury.

Their best bet is to quit smoking.

Are you a smoker yourself? You need to understand that people who smoke have areas of their brain that are altered, they are addicted, its just not that easy without assistance. Smoking is a disease that would need to be treated with patches, gums, counseling, which all of those would cost money too, so its a wash really. My advice is to seek treatment for smoking, move all those expenses into medical and let the court decide, the trustee can only push so much.

I am not advocating lying or hiding expenses, you are simply moving an expense item into a allowable category, trustee and IRS do not include such things, that may apply to one group of people.

And sorry to argue, but that is what my ex-attorney suggesting doing with my expenses like pet expenses. So if you are not an attorney, I suggest you back off the perjury and law talk. Where exactly in the law does it state you cannot pad expenses that do not fall into a irs/trustee category? You are right, as a trustee you should be trying to get as much out the turnip, but on the same token, a debtors attorney should be doing the exact opposite, plenty of peeps have padded budgets, go arrest them.

[pcn]

Isn't this the basic idea here: If you are allowed to claim it, claim it. You don't have to use that amount forever. Nothing says you can't shift parts of your budget as you need to, when needed. Heating costs go up in winter, so you adjust other parts of your budget to compensate. While the moral part of claiming expenses for your kids and shifting that money to fund your smoking may be questionable, I will leave that for others to decide.

[MSbklawyer]

A wee bit off topic, but I was involved with a Canadian bankruptcy recently, and their equivalent of our schedule "J" has a specific line on it for alcohol and tobacco. I guess that's in deference to the French populations in Quebec who would literally be in open revolt if you tried to take their cigarettes or their wine.

[keepinitreal]

At $5 a pack, a 2-pack a day smoker would pay $300 a month and if the spouse smoked 1 pack a day that would be another $150, for a total of $450 a month. It's a lot of money each month, but if the forms allow it and it's the truth, they should report it as such.

[tigergem]

Geez. I smoke. And I spend less than $80.00 per month. What the heck are y'all smoking?

[optimistic1]

Those Canadians sure are some privileged mf's, free healthcare, and they dont lock their doors at night too, I wish I could move there. I wonder if creditors could garnish you there or not.

[momofthree]

I would sacrifice my own personal food budget to ensure that dh gets his tobacco each month! No way in hell could I live with him otherwise. Nicotine addiction is not something to take lightly.

That said, it may be time to start rolling your own cigs or switch to generic or learn to cut back somehow.

I know my dh used to smoke but switched to chewing tobacco not only to save money, but to keep his habit from affecting our children's health. We buy 20 cans each month from Costco to last him a month and that runs around $40. It's not the yummy stuff, it's the cheapest kind they make, but it gets the job done.

Sometimes you have to make sacrifices, and unfortunately, $450 a month isn't going to fly with the trustee.

You may also have to have documentation for your medical expenses since the standard IRS allowable expense is only $60 a month per person.

[tigergem]

If you don't want to roll your own, you can order cigarettes cheaper online from the Indian Reservations, or you can switch to smoking Dean's little cigars. Try vaping - - I am not sure if that is cheaper or not. Geez. Addiction or not, there is no way I would spend that much on cigarettes.