So Angry!

[Itsbel62]

Sorry, but I have to vent! Our plan has been amended for the 3rd time yesterday. We are now at $725.26 after being at $650.00. At our 321 the trustee had said that she would like a "small token" given to the secured debt that was crammed down. That "small token" has pushed us up, so far, to the $725.26. The trustee supposedly wanted $1000 and my atty has been negotiating. I thought $500 was going to be bad, but this is nuts. Every time we turn around, the amount has gone up. I have a horrible feeling that the trustee is going to keep going until she gets close to that $1000. There is no way we can afford the present amount let alone the $1000.

Also, it states on the amended plans that the trustee's fee is 10%, while on the National Data Center it states 8%. I also looked this up on the justice.gov site and for the southern district of Florida, its 8.8%. I put a call into the atty's office and still haven't gotten an answer. Has anyone ever experienced something like this?

[klandsb]

I feel your pain .... I thought Chapter 13 plans were suppose to be feasible/livable. I dont expect to be eating lobster and going shopping everyday but I would like to have a burger every now and again...Why would anyone get into a plan that they know will fail. I just dont get it.. I am waiting to see proof of exactly how the trustee came to this pmt amount. Wondering how you can contest it ????

[AngelinaCatHub]

WOW. I hope our two very good lawyer members (advice is only opinion on this forum) will reply to this. I would advise you to PM them both, but PLEASE ask them to reply publically so that we may also learn. 'Hub

MSbklawyer
JimK (I'm sorry, I cannot remember but look)

Edti: JimKutkowski

[Flamingo]

It's the trustee's job to ensure creditors receive all they can. While you are saying you can't afford to pay that much, the figures you provided to your attorney and trustee indicate otherwise. A Plan would not be approved that you cannot afford to pay. Your attorney is doing a good job for you by trying to keep the payment down to give you more breathing room but the trustee sees money that can go to creditors. Chapter 13's are hard and it's scarey thinking you will be locked in your house for five years eating beans but if you learn to budget, cut back and adjust your lifestyle accordingly, it does work. Been there...never thought we could afford the payment either.

[MSbklawyer]

I'm just guessing here because I don't have all the information, but what often happens is that the trustee has some sort of objection in some area where the law is not crystal clear, or where the facts could be genuinely debated. In other words, if the trustee made an issue out of it, he may win or he may not. But there's enough room for debate that the judge wouldn't award your attorney's fees even if the trustee lost. So the trustee agrees to make the whole thing go away for an amount less than what it would cost for you to pay your lawyer to litigate the issue. In the real world it's called bribery. In the practice of law it's called a "negotiated settlement" or "greasing the skids" or some other such euphemistic term. If this is what happened, your lawyer should have consulted with you before agreeing.

The same thing happens in chapter 7s. The trustee may see something that is arguably a fraudulent transfer to a relative. So the debtor, rather than put Mama through the grief of being sued for the transfer, agrees to pay the trustee back all or some portion of the amount.

I don't have any idea why your attorney would have paid the trustee a higher commission than is dictated unless he's just unaware of the proper amount.

[justbroke]

Also, it states on the amended plans that the trustee's fee is 10%, while on the National Data Center it states 8%. I also looked this up on the justice.gov site and for the southern district of Florida, its 8.8%. I put a call into the atty's office and still haven't gotten an answer. Has anyone ever experienced something like this?

It is well accepted practice, and I think it's an Administrative Order (AO) or the Region 21 Trustee's position, that in all the Districts in Florida, the rate to use for purposes of the Plan is 10%, even though the DOJ's websites reads otherwise. The Trustee receives only the actual rate as per the DOJ.

They do this just in case the plan percentage changes during the Plan. Yes, I hated it too, but that's what they do.

[Itsbel62]

Thank you all for your responses. I now get it. I don't like it, but I get. Im still going to hold my atty's feet to the fire and question her. This whole process has been so surreal. I was sitting at my computer 2 weeks ago copying our whole life insurance policy for the atty's office (they should have requested the whole policy up front) while scheduling a breast biopsy at the same time. I can't wait for this year to end.

[Itsbel62]

I feel your pain .... I thought Chapter 13 plans were suppose to be feasible/livable. I dont expect to be eating lobster and going shopping everyday but I would like to have a burger every now and again...Why would anyone get into a plan that they know will fail. I just dont get it.. I am waiting to see proof of exactly how the trustee came to this pmt amount. Wondering how you can contest it ????

Thanks. I It just seems that everytime we seem to be moving forward, we take 2 steps back.

[Itsbel62]

It is well accepted practice, and I think it's an Administrative Order (AO) or the Region 21 Trustee's position, that in all the Districts in Florida, the rate to use for purposes of the Plan is 10%, even though the DOJ's websites reads otherwise. The Trustee receives only the actual rate as per the DOJ.

They do this just in case the plan percentage changes during the Plan. Yes, I hated it too, but that's what they do.

I feel like I have no control over my life at this point and for the next 5 years. Even if it's only a 2% difference, its 2% of control I still have. Hope that makes sense.

[Itsbel62]

It is well accepted practice, and I think it's an Administrative Order (AO) or the Region 21 Trustee's position, that in all the Districts in Florida, the rate to use for purposes of the Plan is 10%, even though the DOJ's websites reads otherwise. The Trustee receives only the actual rate as per the DOJ.

They do this just in case the plan percentage changes during the Plan. Yes, I hated it too, but that's what they do.

Thanks for explaining that. I wish my atty had taken the time to do that.

[Itsbel62]

I'm just guessing here because I don't have all the information, but what often happens is that the trustee has some sort of objection in some area where the law is not crystal clear, or where the facts could be genuinely debated. In other words, if the trustee made an issue out of it, he may win or he may not. But there's enough room for debate that the judge wouldn't award your attorney's fees even if the trustee lost. So the trustee agrees to make the whole thing go away for an amount less than what it would cost for you to pay your lawyer to litigate the issue. In the real world it's called bribery. In the practice of law it's called a "negotiated settlement" or "greasing the skids" or some other such euphemistic term. If this is what happened, your lawyer should have consulted with you before agreeing.

The same thing happens in chapter 7s. The trustee may see something that is arguably a fraudulent transfer to a relative. So the debtor, rather than put Mama through the grief of being sued for the transfer, agrees to pay the trustee back all or some portion of the amount.

I don't have any idea why your attorney would have paid the trustee a higher commission than is dictated unless he's just unaware of the proper amount.

The trustee probably objects to us making it to the next paycheck. (heavy sarcasm) 3 amended plans that were sent to us late afternoon for quick signatures. My atty says that we need to sign before 5 or the trustee will dismiss. My atty just sends the paperwork to us and puts the onus on us by leaving us very little time to scan the new plan and get it submitted to her office. Do I know if my atty is lying or if the trustee is being a d**k?

[Flamingo]

The trustee probably objects to us making it to the next paycheck. (heavy sarcasm) 3 amended plans that were sent to us late afternoon for quick signatures. My atty says that we need to sign before 5 or the trustee will dismiss. My atty just sends the paperwork to us and puts the onus on us by leaving us very little time to scan the new plan and get it submitted to her office. Do I know if my atty is lying or if the trustee is being a d**k?

If you have provided all necessary and required financial and other information to your attorney and trustee, you need to trust what is going on or, if you feel intimidated or something is not right, tell your attorney and get an explanation before any changes become final. If you are still not happy, you can always seek other counsel.

[klandsb]

When you say seek other councel its sounds easy enough but is it really ??? Do you hve to have the plan u orginally submitted dismissed and start from scratch ???

[Itsbel62]

If you have provided all necessary and required financial and other information to your attorney and trustee, you need to trust what is going on or, if you feel intimidated or something is not right, tell your attorney and get an explanation before any changes become final. If you are still not happy, you can always seek other counsel.

We provided everything that was asked of us. We are also in too deep with present counsel to change at this point. We will just have to see what happens.

[Itsbel62]

When you say seek other councel its sounds easy enough but is it really ??? Do you hve to have the plan u orginally submitted dismissed and start from scratch ???

I couldn't even imagine doing that at this point.