Is it fraud? Am I in trouble?

[catleg]

My other thought is that if the BK13 is dismissed by the trustee, the money in the plan may get refunded and would be marital property he would have to split in the divorce...that may explain his eagerness to pay off the plan early. That and he still wouldn't get his debts cleared.

I think the Amex prepaid card thing is a smokescreen ... dispute the charge after 3 1//2 months?

They're trying to run you over, but he's got a lot to lose here.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Legal aid cannot help me unfortunately. The amex claim is a possible "criminal" charge...Legal aid in that area cannot assist individuals in criminal matters. It's a state guideline.

OK, TN, Let me get this right in my mind: Your still married. True? Your ex-to-be gave you $3500 ON a prepaid card of more than $3500? Did you put ANYTHING in writing that you would move for $3500? Did he simply say use $3500 on this card that has more than $3500 in it?

These are important questions as, if he owns the card, and you are still married, you may own the card as well. He is accusing his wife of using the card in fraud by drawing $3500? That is a breach of a verbal contract/agreement. Move back in, make his life miserable. As far as criminal, he has performed an illegal action by stopping payment on monies he gave you. You in good faith took the money to move out. It is not you who broke the law. Who is threatening to prosecute whom? Obviously PayPal reversed the funds, and it is a shame Sis account is locked up. That is to preserve the evidence within the fraudulent transaction. The fraud is on your husband for two reasons. If, you had the card in hand, he gave it to you, and by hiding an asset the Trustee can "avoid" the whole amount and call it part of the estate. Crossing state lines also muddles this a bit, but you should have collected cash in state and sent it money in hand.

I would make a log of everything that happened, go pro se and go right to the Trustee. Under the circumstances, have a one on one with him and get the Trustee to dismiss the lawyer on the fact he is connected by the mistress.

I've got work to do but I shall come back time to time while I am thinking on this. But coming COMPLETELY clean with the Trustee will be your best bet and he WILL help you. This type of crap gets those Trustees real angry. I would dare to say, you husband/jerk will be a very sorry man, and you will get a very fast and cooperative divorce as the truth reveals itself. 'Hub

[rrockinggramma]

The issue isn't whether or not she had a right to it, that would be a defense for her in court the issue is that Amex reversed the charge and is going after her for fraudulent use of the card. They could care less about community property state and if she could or couldn't etc. All they care about is their 3500.00 and that Amex doesn't lose it etc.

Did the ex file the charges in court and accuse her of fraud, as in district or civil court, or just with Amex?

If only with Amex they are required by law to investigate and will discover that she indeed did use the money.

Her defense is the emails giving her permission to use this money and she needs to get those to Amex right away to stop this part of her troubles.

The trustee is a non issue here, in my opinion. She needs to go right to the ethics board of her state's bar association and file a complaint against the attorney. My friend told me once that one call from the state bar will ruin an attorney's whole year. She needs to get tough here and take the bull by the horns and file this complaint NOW.

Then she needs to file a motion in divorce court (legalzoom.com) demanding that her ex pay for her representation in this matter as the ethics violation makes representation by their present attorney impossible.

[debtprison]

You do need a personal attorney now for sure. I would do everything you can to get one even if it means borrowing a little here and there from relatives.

One possibility is to contact the trustee (preferably through a lawyer) and reveal all that you know about possible bankruptcy fraud. You definitely need a lawyer here.

[AngelinaCatHub]

The issue isn't whether or not she had a right to it, that would be a defense for her in court the issue is that Amex reversed the charge and is going after her for fraudulent use of the card. They could care less about community property state and if she could or couldn't etc. All they care about is their 3500.00 and that Amex doesn't lose it etc.

Did the ex file the charges in court and accuse her of fraud, as in district or civil court, or just with Amex?

If only with Amex they are required by law to investigate and will discover that she indeed did use the money.

Her defense is the emails giving her permission to use this money and she needs to get those to Amex right away to stop this part of her troubles.

The trustee is a non issue here, in my opinion. She needs to go right to the ethics board of her state's bar association and file a complaint against the attorney. My friend told me once that one call from the state bar will ruin an attorney's whole year. She needs to get tough here and take the bull by the horns and file this complaint NOW.

Then she needs to file a motion in divorce court (legalzoom.com) demanding that her ex pay for her representation in this matter as the ethics violation makes representation by their present attorney impossible.

YES I agree with you. But Amex is only doing this under the husbands complaint of alleged unauthorized use. This is her word against his, and that is what I tried to say, get evidence he gave permission, then by the fraudulent complaint to Amex, he is toast.

Ooops didn't mean to shout 'gramma. 'Hub

[AngelinaCatHub]

You do need a personal attorney now for sure. I would do everything you can to get one even if it means borrowing a little here and there from relatives.

One possibility is to contact the trustee (preferably through a lawyer) and reveal all that you know about possible bankruptcy fraud. You definitely need a lawyer here.

I too think she needs a lawyer, but in her case of no doe, seeing the wife face to face and in her own words state what has happened may just have a better impact upon the Trustee than another lawyer. They won't have the effectiveness of the body language and turmoil our OP is currently in. It is called the sympathy application. Trustees are people too and as we, they can see the truth in the words. 'Hub

[Flamingo]

I've left messages for my attorney, who happens to be a relative of my ex's mistress...of course, no calls back. HELP?

As I stated before on here, you probably have a conflict of interest situation here now with your BK attorney who filed the joint chapter 13 for you and your husband. He probably should not now be representing you. You can get a good divorce lawyer and ensure that your soon to be ex has to pay for your attorney's fees since you have no income. Nothing is impossible but you have to do it. To find a good lawyer to help you out in this situation, call your State Bar Association (look in yoiur phone book under your state section), tell them you need assistance in finding an attorney, explain the situation, and they can give you recommendations for your area who to see. It's better than gleaning names from phone book ads.

You have a situation where you need legal help or you can be torn to shreds.

[debtprison]

I too think she needs a lawyer, but in her case of no doe, seeing the wife face to face and in her own words state what has happened may just have a better impact upon the Trustee than another lawyer. They won't have the effectiveness of the body language and turmoil our OP is currently in. It is called the sympathy application. Trustees are people too and as we, they can see the truth in the words. 'Hub

My main concern with suggesting the lawyer is twofold:

1. I was thinking the trustee might see it through the perspective of this being a nasty divorce where she is just trying to get back at the husband. (I know this isn't the case but others might see it that way). Or that possibly she might get too emotional (who wouldn't really?) and be seen as hysterical.

2. To protect her and get professional advice since it seems she might possibly be on the hook for BK fraud and other charges.

I agree the situation really sucks and I wish her luck.

[tennessee]

Thanks everyone. I know this a HUGE mess. It gets so much worse but I won't go into it...other than to say that I have felt terrified for months...

If you have seen my PAST posts, there are other issues. I had no idea that we were not supposed to GET credit...as I said, my husband took care of all of these matters, I just went in and signed where they told me to sign. No excuse...I should have known what I was getting into. We took out a loan for an AC unit (around 5K back in January of 09.) The loan is in both of our names. In June I called our joint BK attorney to ask about this...the paralegal called back and said it would be okay...just don't take out anymore credit until the 13 is discharged.

I thought that if I walked away quietly, giving the husband the house, taking just that 3500 and some furnishings he would be satisfied. He wasn't...I have been harassed, extorted and now have literally lost almost everything except for a 10 year old van and some cheap appliances. I left the ex the home, appliances, furniture, the pool...way too much. I should have never left my home...I realize that now.

Giving me authorization to use the credit card was done by email...using readnotify.com certified email. He received and responded to the email from his office at work and I already have a subpoena stating that the IP sender of that email was his employer. I have 187 OTHER emails...many trying to extort money from me and the situation gets worse and worse.

My sister told me to just do what I needed to do. She isn't mad YET but her business has been frozen for 7 weeks. I should have hired an attorney months ago...Moving out of state was very expensive though and I needed the money to move.

I am now looking all over the net, spending the weekend trying to figure out how to answer a divorce and file a counterclaim on my own...

I truly feel that I should talk to the TN Bar Association and perhaps the trustee as well. What I have been through is WRONG. The husband claims the last ordeal, filing 3500 unauthorized use charges against me, was my own fault because I should have given him 12 music CD's that he wanted...It's insane. Asking me for several hundred dollars, some music CD's and my signature on a unagreed upon marital dissolution agreement in order to cancel a dispute he should never had filed in the first place.

This man has my home that I loved. His bills are being paid off on the 13 while mine are (for some reason) not even listed in the creditors. He had an affair...has done so much more to me than I have even put on here...and I am fighting this alone.

The problem here is...I was willing to take off...lose it all...all that I had worked for JUST to be rid of him...That wasn't good enough for him.

[rrockinggramma]

well everyone one of us agree she needs a really good neutral attorney but when you have no doe as Hub said, it is tough to know what to do or where to turn.

The trustee won't help her with the fraud charge againt Amex. Now he could call out the ex over the bonus but that till doesn't help her out with the fraud charges filed against her by Amex.

And because she has no attorney she will have to defend herself. I agree with Hub here and would so be going after him on it.

The ethics charge just lets the state bar keep this attorney honest.

[tennessee]

I understand the attorney not being able to represent the both of us if there are disputes. They made it clear that the paperwork we filed in the beginning would only stand if he and I were working towards a common goal. If we began fighting each other we would be dropped.

What I don't understand is why I leave voice mails asking for pay off information and get no calls back...three weeks later my husband calls in asking for payoff information and they call me telling me that I need to sign a form for him to get this info. The comment "Well, he's a big boy. If he wants to pay this off and get the house out of this for himself he can do that" doesn't seem like an attorney working for both of us. When I then said "Well, what I want to know is if what I am being sent to sign here will in anyway take away my claim to the property" she jumps in with "Now, wait a minute here. If you start talking like that I am going to HAVE to drop your case."

So my husband, who is having an affair with this person's niece, is a "big boy" who can do what he wishes...And I am...well...what am I? A person who, if I complain, will get dropped from representation?

That does not seem fair to me. I feel like I am fighting small town politics...and about to lose everything.

[tennessee]

OK, TN, Let me get this right in my mind: Your still married. True? Your ex-to-be gave you $3500 ON a prepaid card of more than $3500? Did you put ANYTHING in writing that you would move for $3500? Did he simply say use $3500 on this card that has more than $3500 in it?

These are important questions as, if he owns the card, and you are still married, you may own the card as well. He is accusing his wife of using the card in fraud by drawing $3500? That is a breach of a verbal contract/agreement. Move back in, make his life miserable. As far as criminal, he has performed an illegal action by stopping payment on monies he gave you. You in good faith took the money to move out. It is not you who broke the law. Who is threatening to prosecute whom? Obviously PayPal reversed the funds, and it is a shame Sis account is locked up. That is to preserve the evidence within the fraudulent transaction. The fraud is on your husband for two reasons. If, you had the card in hand, he gave it to you, and by hiding an asset the Trustee can "avoid" the whole amount and call it part of the estate. Crossing state lines also muddles this a bit, but you should have collected cash in state and sent it money in hand.

I would make a log of everything that happened, go pro se and go right to the Trustee. Under the circumstances, have a one on one with him and get the Trustee to dismiss the lawyer on the fact he is connected by the mistress.

I've got work to do but I shall come back time to time while I am thinking on this. But coming COMPLETELY clean with the Trustee will be your best bet and he WILL help you. This type of crap gets those Trustees real angry. I would dare to say, you husband/jerk will be a very sorry man, and you will get a very fast and cooperative divorce as the truth reveals itself. 'Hub

Your still married. True?

Yes.

Your ex-to-be gave you $3500 ON a prepaid card of more than $3500?

Yes. When he gave me the money we were still living in the same home and no divorce was even pending. He waited 3 1/2 months to file the unauthorized use charge.

Did you put ANYTHING in writing that you would move for $3500?

Yes. We discussed it in emails. I would move out and take the remains of the card. It was actually closer to 4K when I got it. I just sent 3500 of it to my sister and used the rest to pay bills in the home I was in at that time.

Did he simply say use $3500 on this card that has more than $3500 in it?

He told me that I needed to take the money and go.

These are important questions as, if he owns the card, and you are still married, you may own the card as well. He is accusing his wife of using the card in fraud by drawing $3500?

Yes, this is what he is saying. After filing the dispute he sent me an email saying that I fraudently signed in to his paypal and sent this money as if I was him. Not true. I used a joint account and my own email address. I didn't foresee it being a problem at the time. It is still to soon to see where the charges will fall...Amex won't just reverse the charges and let it go at that. They will want to come after someone. I called amex and they told me that they couldn't give me any information, even as his spouse...new credit card laws against this. The card was a prepaid travelers check amex...I'm just waiting to be served papers to answer on this money...don't know when it's going to happen, and praying to God that they don't go after my sister...That would be horrible. But of course, the ex knew that. His last emails to me where horrible...He was trying to get all that he could out of me. Music CD's. Money. A signature on the divorce papers that gave him the house outright and didn't cover important isssues such as joint home inprovement loans that he said he would take over...and if I did all of this he would "take care of this dispute."

His last email to me was this: "So are you saying that holding onto things that I want and not giving paying your half of the divorce (sending him money for HIS attorney) and not signing divorce papers is more important to you than being done with all of this? Wow, I wonder what your sister would think if she knew this."

This is the type of person I am dealing with. And amazingly I am finding that it is all legal. Filing a false unauthorized use charge is not illegal. It's incredible.

[rrockinggramma]

well no matter how hopeless and unfair you feel everything is right now you need to stand up and start fighting for yourself cause no one else is going to. The attorney may be unfair. And yes there may be some one sided ness there but all you can do is stand up for yourself.

1. do not sign away anything.
2. show up at a legal aid office or research in your area for pro bono lawyer work find someplace that can look over ANY paperwork they toss your way to make sure it is in your best interest to sign off on it. There have to be somewhere, even the state bar association that may have a list of attorney's that provide service on a sliding scale or something to help you out with this part of it.

3. Take care of that amex charge

4. Now if he pays off the Bk and you get a discharge from it, then take it and start your life anew. And make sure he really does refinance the house and gets your name off the deed to avoid future issues with it. Then make sure you get 1/2 the equity when he pays everything off.

[indebt00]

I just wanted to throw in that you should be able to print all your BK docs from Pacer so that you have your own copy.

good luck

[woeisme]

I just wanted to throw in that you should be able to print all your BK docs from Pacer so that you have your own copy.

good luck

Exactly! Get copies of the paperwork off of Pacer, it will have which creditors were notified in the creditor matrix. If your creditor shows up in this matrix, you will know that they never filed a proof of claim, so if the CH 13 somehow gets completed, you will no longer owe this debt. However, if the 13 gets dismissed, you will still owe this debt, just as your ex-scumbag will owe anything of his that is not paid in the CH 13.

I don't understand what AMEX thinks it is out of, didn't you say this was a PRE-PAID card? So doesn't this mean the $ was already there? So why is AMEX going after you?

What I would do is this... play just as nasty and mean as the scumbag. #1. Notify scumbag that you are going to the trustee with the following information if he does not immediately call AMEX and tell the truth about the card charges and get the $3500 restored to your sister: a) that credit was taken out during the course of your 13 without trustee approval and, b) that scumbag received a bonus of $7500 and tried to conceal that information from the trustee. #2. Tell the lawyer that you are filing a complaint with the ethics board for the state bar association based on the obvious conflict of interest and their treatment of you.

And I'd do all these things, not have them as idle threats. First of all, as soon as Auntie dear knew that niecie-poo was committing adultery with a client of hers, she should have immediately secured herself from the case. She did not, she just threatened that you better play nice and agree with scumbag's wishes or she was going to drop you as a client, despite this being a joint filing and her requirement to represent you both because she's already been paid from the marital estate. So no matter what, she needs to be reported.

On the 2nd item, go ahead and let the CH 13 get blown up in his face. The likelihood of him getting the discharge with all the other scummy things he's pulling seems remote to me, he'll try to find a way to screw it up for you in the end. Fight fire with fire, he's going to keep trying to make your life miserable if he's able to. Make his much more miserable! Torpedo the CH 13! Torpedo the lawyer! And then, fight the divorce with all you've got. Demand 1/2 the home equity, demand 1/2 the assets! Name the mistress in the divorce case, threaten to drag it out forever, costing him every last dime he has. He's not going to back down unless you come at him from a position of strength. Take him to court for false accusations, you have the proof to back you up. At the very least, communicate to him that you are ready, willing, and able to do all these things, if he doesn't come clean immediately with AMEX. Oh, I wish I was a lawyer in Tennessee, I'd take this case pro-bono to squash him like the bug that he is... unfortunately I'm just a chemist in Ohio...