re: FORM 23 "Debtor's Certification of Completion of Postpetition"

[simon2020]

I received the following from #23 from my trustee - "Debtor's Certification of Completion of Postpetition Instructional Course Concerning Personal Financial Management."

On the form it says"Every individual debtor in a chapter 7, chapter 11 in which section 1141 (d)(3) applies, or chapter 13 case must file this certification.

Basically it states:

I John Doe, the debotr in the above-style case, hereby certify that on x date, I completed an instructional course in personal financial management provided by XYQ provider, an approved personal financial provider.

At the bottom of the form, it states:

"Filing Deadlines: In a chapter 11 or 13 case, file no later than the last payment made by the debtor as required by the plan or the filing of a motion for entry or a discharge under section 1142 (d)(5)(B) or section 1328(b) of the Code. (see Fed. R. Bankr. P. 1007(c))

I called my attorney and he said I need to contact the company I got my financial mgr. course from prior to filing chapter 13.

He then said to file the form and send it to him.

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QUESTIONS: I'm in a chapter 13. Why am I filling this form now? Is my attorney incorrect because I thought I had to go through my full 5 years AND THEN, fill the form and my attorney would send it to the trustee.

I can understand someone who files a chapter 7 because they are in the courts, confirmed and they're done. But a chapter 13 plan? It doesn't make sense.

Someone out there, please enlightened me about form 23.

Thanks All!

[TrainWreak]

I don't know what form #23 is yet but my attorney is having me complete the second course right after filing 13 so it doesn't get forgotten.

[simon2020]

I don't know what form #23 is yet but my attorney is having me complete the second course right after filing 13 so it doesn't get forgotten.

So it sounds like my attorney may be right (I think).

Did you have to pay for this "second course" I know I paid $50 back in October just before I officially filed.

[TrainWreak]

My first course which I just took was included in my attorney fee but I checked on the site and it looks like it will cost $50 for the second course. I will find out for sure soon. He said he would file electronically this weekend but I don't know if he did yet. He has been really good up to this point so I'm pretty comfortable with him.

[lrprn]

The current bk law requires Ch 7 and Ch 13 filers to complete TWO courses - a credit counseling course before filing and a personal financial management course after filing (but before discharge).

Since most agencies that are approved by your state provide both types of courses, it makes sense to go back to the agency where you completed your pre-filing course to take your post-filing course there as well.

Even though Ch 13 filers have 3-5 years before their case is discharged, the court will continue to notify the filer that the course hasn't been taken. It's easier just to get it out of the way during year one so the court doesn't keep notifying you it hasn't been done.

Here's the link to state-approved personal financial management courses - http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/ccde/de_approved.htm

[simon2020]

The current bk law requires Ch 7 and Ch 13 filers to complete TWO courses - a credit counseling course before filing and a personal financial management course after filing (but before discharge).

Since most agencies that are approved by your state provide both types of courses, it makes sense to go back to the agency where you completed your pre-filing course to take your post-filing course there as well.

Even though Ch 13 filers have 3-5 years before their case is discharged, the court will continue to notify the filer that the course hasn't been taken. It's easier just to get it out of the way during year one so the court doesn't keep notifying you it hasn't been done.

Here's the link to state-approved personal financial management courses - http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/ccde/de_approved.htm

Thanks for this informative reply -- which brings me up to my next question - you mentioned "the first year" after I filed. Does that mean I have a least a year to get this 2nd course done? Reason I ask is right now my cash flow is a little low after paying all my expenses AND my monthly payment to my trustee so I'm trying to save up for the fee.

Is it really one year or will I jeopardize my confirmed plan if I wait too long?

[justbroke]

Generally speaking, you need to read your Confirmation Order to find out when the second course is due. Of course, I'm speaking of Chapter 13 cases. In my Confirmation Order, it indicated that I must complete the 2nd Course (Financial Management) within 180 days of the Order confirming my Chapter 13 Plan! I thought this was strange because Form 23 does in fact read (on the bottom) that you only need to do this prior to discharge.

So, local rules/customs may apply. As indicated above, it is a good idea to get it out of the way early, because most people forget1 It is also about 3 or more hours of your life that you'll never get back. LOL.

As a convenience, many Trustees in Florida, hold a free (approved) version of this required class right after your scheduled 341 Meeting!

I paid only $15 for the second class, and took it on-line.