Thought I had a no asset 7, but was recommended 13. Lot of questions.

[tinfoilhat]

My only assets are a car, truck, firearm. All are exempt. Those and personal effects.
No income.
I live with my father for now. I was asked a lot of questions about his income, which is SS and disabled veterans VA check. Those equal approx $3600/month.
I was asked about the house, it's not and never was in my name, it has a reverse mortgage on it.

I wanted a chapter 7, the attorney recommended a chapter 13.
His reason was because of a car I sold to a person I used to live with in another state. He said the ch7 trustees are more aggressive and may sue the buyer of that car to get it back.
He also said chapter 13 trustees are more lenient and won't likely go after anything.
Does this sound right?

Also about my payment, income etc. He said I'll have to pay $100/month for 36 months. Where does that figure come from?

And on my means test I obviously put zero for income so how do they figure I'm going to pay it?

I did tell the attorney that my father would give me the money to pay it.
I offered to pay it in a lump sum, but I guess thats not an option.
He said he may have to have my father sign an agreement or similiar to pay this until I can pay it myself.

He also said it could be paid off sooner than 36 months, like if I get a job and can make bigger payments, he even said he could do something I didn't quite catch to maybe pay it off sooner.

Does all this sound right?

His reason for going with a 13 is mainly so they won't go after the car I sold, or anything else.
And he said I can file it and get the process started as soon as I want.

Does this sound right?

I didn't tell him this, but I want to get moving on this asap, I understand it won't close until 3 years or until it's paid off.

He said the whole process when it's closed and I'm free will have cost me $5500 to $6000
This is all on $59,000 of CC debt.

Does any of this not sound right?

[walkthaplank]

Talk to another lawyer. Talk to two or three other lawyers.

[tinfoilhat]

I already did, this is the 5th. They all have very different plans. I tell them all the exact same thing.

[pcn]

Of that $100 a month, did he tell you how much he was getting? That's not much, so I wonder if he is pushing you to a ch13 purely for the profit in it for him. I'd see several more lawyers, too.

[catleg]

On the face of it, this is insane.

You have zero income, you should not be able to commit to any payment plan.

As far as the trustee going after the car, I think that's baloney too. What are we talking about here? BMW? Mercedes?

It shouldn't matter which chapter you file, an asset is an asset.

I would give this lawyer a wide berth and keep looking.

[falken]

You could not file a 13 if you wanted to.
You have to be "an individual with regular income", no income, no 13.

[tinfoilhat]

Great, just f***ing great.

[tinfoilhat]

So what, is this guy doing a 7 for me and sneaking in a payment plan that goes to him?

Elaborate on your thoughts please.

Who am I supposed to run to, some other no talent assclown thats going to f me over? I might as well stick around and let this guy get it. Should I find a female attorney?

Of that $100 a month, did he tell you how much he was getting?

Thats the chapter 13 payment plan minimum if you fall at the low end of the means test, I thought this was obvious.

It's $1500 to him and $3600 over three years.

Sorry, I'm not in a good mood so don't anyone go and take this personally please.

[tinfoilhat]

On the face of it, this is insane.

You have zero income, you should not be able to commit to any payment plan.

Are you guessing? Is THIS fact?

If you don't feel like clicking the link heres the text:

What is "income" for the means test?
The short answer today is "who knows"? The amendments of 2005 did not define the term. We know that the definition does not confine itself to taxable income. We know that Social Security benefits are not income.

Why do I bother, I keep asking questions, getting guesses, and finding ANSWERS elsewhere.

[Tbornetun]

How much did you sell the car for? What did you use the money for? When did this occur? I don't think you will have any issue with a chapter 7. You would not qualify for a 13, you have zero income.

[justbroke]

First, I highly suggest several more consults with attorneys in your area.

I wanted a chapter 7, the attorney recommended a chapter 13. His reason was because of a car I sold to a person I used to live with in another state. He said the ch7 trustees are more aggressive and may sue the buyer of that car to get it back.
He also said chapter 13 trustees are more lenient and won't likely go after anything. Does this sound right?

Not at all! Who really cares if the Trustee goes after the buyer? When did you sell it? Did you get market value for it? Unless you "gave" away a $5,000+ asset for $100 or something silly like that... let the Trustee have fun with it. It doesn't affect you.

Also about my payment, income etc. He said I'll have to pay $100/month for 36 months. Where does that figure come from?

Exactly... where did he dream that number up? If you have no income... you can't fund a plan.

And on my means test I obviously put zero for income so how do they figure I'm going to pay it?

He made up a number, I'm sure!

I did tell the attorney that my father would give me the money to pay it. I offered to pay it in a lump sum, but I guess thats not an option. He said he may have to have my father sign an agreement or similiar to pay this until I can pay it myself.

Pay a lump sum for what? The Chapter 13? This doesn't make any sense to me either.

He also said it could be paid off sooner than 36 months, like if I get a job and can make bigger payments, he even said he could do something I didn't quite catch to maybe pay it off sooner.

Does all this sound right?

No, it doesn't sound right. You would have to pay 100% of your unsecured debt in the Plan. How much unsecured debt do you have... $59K? So you'd have to pay $59K to pay it off sooner than 36 months. (I can't believe this attorney is telling you these things!)

His reason for going with a 13 is mainly so they won't go after the car I sold, or anything else. And he said I can file it and get the process started as soon as I want.

Does this sound right?

Who cares about them going after a car you sold. Unless the person you sold it to, is a really close friend/relative, I wouldn't worry about it as it doesn't affect you personally anyhow. Plus, we don't have enough information to tell if the "deal" on the car, is even something the Trustee can touch. (Time, who this person was, how much you sold it for, how much it was worth.)

I didn't tell him this, but I want to get moving on this asap, I understand it won't close until 3 years or until it's paid off.

He said the whole process when it's closed and I'm free will have cost me $5500 to $6000 This is all on $59,000 of CC debt.

Ahh, $59K in CC debt. I still don't see where he dreamed up that payment.

Does any of this not sound right?

Nope! Time to consult with a few more attorneys!

Why do I bother, I keep asking questions, getting guesses, and finding ANSWERS elsewhere.

Looking for answers in the wrong places? If you're talking about an Answer on the MoranLaw site... that answer is mostly wrong and is dated.

Are you guessing? Is THIS fact?

What you posted is just not a fact. That's a law firm that in 2006, not 2009, wrote an "opinion" on what "income" is in the BAPCPA which had just come out less than a year earlier than their opinion (they should really update it). In any event, "income" -- for purposes of the Bankruptcy Code -- is defined in the BAPCPA in 11 USC 101. (Contrary to what you posted from MoranLaw, which has a date of 10/2006 on it... it has been well litigated.)

"Income" is really defined as "Current Monthly Income" and is basically everything received whether or not taxable. The exceptions are Social Security benefits and some other obscure benefits for victims of war. (The reason it's "current monthly income" is because that language ties to all the BAPCPA amendments around the "Means Test".)

What I don't understand is what your income is. All that I see in the thread is information about your father's income, but not yours.

This is why I suggest finding a competent lawyer who you feel comfortable with and that understands all the nuances. I feel that the information you provided, based on what this attorney is saying, is very confusing.

[tinfoilhat]

How much did you sell the car for? What did you use the money for? When did this occur? I don't think you will have any issue with a chapter 7. You would not qualify for a 13, you have zero income.

Sold the car for $8000, money used on expenses and necessities, sold end of april 09. Problem (as I was told) is that I sold it to an ex g/f in another state, I lived at the address and work made me change all my vehicle registration, title, drivers license to that state. So her title to this vehicle looks identical to the title I had for it, except it's in her name (same address and all) so she looks like an insider.
Although she sent me copies of the title transfer reciept that says she paid tax for $8000 and that the selling price on the transfer paperwork says selling price is $8000.

Kind of stupid if you ask me, insider or not she paid fair market value and it's verified by legal documents (title transfer reciept, tax paid on selling price)

If the job I had didn't require me to transfer all that I'd guess it wouldn't be a problem because I would have no tie to her address.

[tinfoilhat]

I give up. Find another lawyer, ok thats what I've been doing and theres something wrong with all of them according to this site.
Am I supposed to do endless consultations, have this forum review every one?

I give up, seriously. I'm done.

[tinfoilhat]

Yea, I see on that site where it says What is "income" for the means test?
The short answer today is "who knows"? The amendments of 2005 did not define the term. Then on another page it says eligibility for chapter 13 must have a regular income greater than your reasonable living expenses.

Screw it, I'm done with this.

[justbroke]

Am I supposed to do endless consultations, have this forum review every one?

Well, if we are talking about lawyers, that's one thing. I think that perhaps you're looking for the wrong lawyer. I don't know all your financial detail, but if you qualify for a Chapter 7, you qualify for a Chapter 7.

If a lawyer is saying the "car" is an issue... so what. It means nothing. Here's why. If you transferred the car improperly, the only thing that's going to happen is the U.S. Trustee sues the person who owns it now to get the value you should have received for it. How does that affect you and your filing?

This is a business decision. You must think of it as such.

I really don't know what you want. Do you want a Chapter 13 or a Chapter 7? You seem easily convinced that you should do a Chapter 13... to avoid issues with the car.

I can only offer my personal advice on what I see. I also say, don't just go around on websites reading information and assuming things. A lot of the Bankruptcy Code is esoteric, is handled differently amongst the different Districts, and there are many lawyers who are still practicing the "old Code" over the "new Code". (Example: a lawyer telling you that you can buy out a Chapter 13 Plan for less than 100% is wrong.)

If you really want to file a Chapter 7... you go to Attorneys and ask if they specialize in Chapter 7s. Then you talk to 5 or them. You choose the one who will fight for you. That simple.