Home maintenance expenses question.

[optimistic1]

So, in my district, the trustee has a guideline, that if you exceed, they most likely object to the amount. For home maintenance, it lists it at $100 even. So my question is this.

If they dont object, then I should have no worries, I plan on claiming only about $60. For such things as, weed killer to remain in compliance with city code, bug killer to protect myself from scorpions, etc, yearly air conditioning check ups, air filters for the cleaner, and yearly carpet cleaning. I'm sure if I started to collect my receipts I need not worry, but I'm not real consistent in doing it every month, so I suppose I should average all the ones I can find.

Should these be ok? Or should I need to show that I hire a bug guy and landscaping company to take care of the yard, to make the expenses look more legitimate?

[justbroke]

optmistic... just staying under the radar, could cause them to look as well. Ther's no magic formula. While I applaud the Trustee (Tee) who lists, in detail, what expense categories they look at and what they'll object to... that should not control yoru Chapter 13 plan and budget.

Here's why... the Trustee can only object for cause (like bad faith). Just becuase your particular home is 3 times larger than others, doesn't mean it take sthe same $100 to maintain. I believe that these Tees are using fear to make attorneys and debtors stay within some arbitrary guidelines that are NOT in the BAPCPA. The BAPCPA purely talks about IRS allowances and actual expenses. You use whichever is more.

Ahh, but having wrote that, not all lawyers are willing to fight the Tee and most want to be on good terms, so they just all lie down and do what the nice Tee says.

I'm not one of them. I put down expenses in categories that the Tee probably should have objected to... not a peep. Confirmed!

I'm not saying that this is the best course of action, as it would cause some litigation (hearings) with the Tee to defend your plan... but I'm tired of Chapter 13 debtors being pushed into Plans that they will never be able to afford.

[HHM]

The starting point for the chapter 13 budget is what you "actually" spend.

[ameangreenbe]

The starting point for the chapter 13 budget is what you "actually" spend.

And the next step would be some type of "reasonable and necessary" or "in the best interest of the creditors" test?

I ask because my actual expenditures are most likely higher than what would be allowed.

Are these tests simply the judgment of the Trustee based on local norms?

Thanks. Without you folks I would have no clue how to make sure my atty is doing her job.

[justbroke]

What HHM writes is almost always succinct and straight to the point. You put your actuals on anything that your attorney hands you. You don't make them up. You don't artificially raise or lower them. You put your cards on the table, so to speak.

What the Trustees do, is use their own "guidelines" just so that they know which cases to look further at. If you are below the "Trustee's" recommended expenses (which are, in my opinion, arbitrary and have nothing to do with an individual debtor's case) then the Trustee gives you a pass. If you are above, then the Trustee complains and threatens to "object" to confirmation. The real truth is that the Trustee can't deny your confirmation... only ask the Judge (via the objection) to look at something. The Judge has the final say and they have many many many times overruled Trustee objections.

So, you file your actual, wait for the Trustee to complain, and then negotiate or fight the Trustee. That's my stance. Again, some lawyers choose not to fight.

[optimistic1]

Well, I'm supposed to come up with a budget, correct? And especially in my case, where I will be putting somewhat hypotheticals on my schedules due to the fact that I will having a baby in August.

By no means am I "making up expenses", I dont think you all quite understood my question, or perhaps you misconceived it.

If I am too busy to be doing the bug spraying and lawn maintenance, because of the fact that we both work full time jobs and will be taking care of a newborn, then I should have every right in the world to purchases these services and utilize them as an expense. I dont see why it is wrong to do this, I am somewhat entitled under their guidelines atleast $100 without raising eyebrows at things, which I wont even be claiming that much anyway.

I do see your point Justbroke, I could exceed the $100, and every other category, but in my case, I dont even make that much money to use the max amounts they list on their "expenses sheet". I am under in every single category for transportation, food, clothing, etc. If the trustee raises an eyebrow for anything, it will be because they might think I can't even survive on the plan I propose. Which is why I am thinking about having my wife file a Ch.7, and then settle my debts seperately.

I am most likely going to setup these services and start to get my receipts in order, just in case, so that these are my (actual) expenses. To actually sit down and come up with a "budget", is easier said than done, because if I already knew how to do that so well, then I wouldnt be filing a bankruptcy (again).

[ameangreenbe]

@justbroke

Now I get it! The real "key" so to say is to have an attorney who is willing to argue your case. With so many people filing my concern is that attorneys can do nothing more than "file paper". Consider me a soon to be educated consumer so I can ensure I'm being adequately represented.

Thanks.

[ameangreenbe]

@optimistic1

I understand your frustration. The "budget" process seems to be the most difficult to get guidance on. My strategy is the same as yours, I'm spending what I feel I need to spend and documenting it. For example, both my wife an I have chronic illnesses that at times do not require monthly doctor visits. I'm in one of those times now but I go even though I don't need to to "prove" the expense. I can't be stuck 3 years from now without the money to go monthly if needed.

In your case, knowing what expenses you'll have when your child is four is difficult if you've never had one. I have three little ones (2,4, & 6). I never thought I'd have to send my 4 year old to school before she was five. She's been going since she was three. How could I have planned for this and captured it in a budget.

If I can help you estimate your child care expenses or give you some ideas of what to plan for let me know. Glad to help.

[justbroke]

I am most likely going to setup these services and start to get my receipts in order, just in case, so that these are my (actual) expenses. To actually sit down and come up with a "budget", is easier said than done, because if I already knew how to do that so well, then I wouldnt be filing a bankruptcy (again).

Trustees are strange creatures with lots of power (they are more scary than any BK Judge by the way). The BK Judge doesn't "do" anything to you directly... they do it on motion of someone like the Trustee.

In any event, these Trustee creatures are very strange to me. Some are extremely unpredictable and it varies even within the same District. Surprisingly, one Trustee will allow you $100 for law care maintenance service, and the other will say that's a luxury! Seriously!

This is why I hate the process, but is also the reason I believe that debtor attorneys need to be more firm and challenge more.