Kcfaninin, I sympathize with your position. My wife and I had a somewhat similar situation to yours, except our debt was due to our own stupidity with unsecured cc`s. We have a home, car and second all paid out of the 13. We somehow stayed current making minimum payments for a year or so until I realized we had 120k in cc debt. At that point I realized we would never dig out without bk. I had been working alot of overtime to try and keep up, so when we filed due to exemptions allowed and the fact that my previous 6 mos. income was very high, I ended up with an 80% payback at 465.00 a week. I`ve been in the 13 for 30 months and have had to continue working day and night overtime to keep up with the trustee payments. Hence the catch 22. Now my work situation has changed due to the economy. Zero overtime. We`ve just sent in our tax return and yearly budget and we`re hoping our payment will decrease substantially. I`m not very optimistic cause I know once the trustee is collecting a large amount of cash, he`s very reluctant to take any less. I too may find myself either having to dismiss or try to convert. I`ve paid 50k to creditors in the last 30 months, you`d think that would be worth something, especially in light of the fact that wallstreet and the big banks are all getting bailed out with taxpayer money and or little if any payback from them. I`m well aware that nothings fair in this world, but it still sucks!!!!! I`ll be watching your posts and wish you luck. I will gladly exchange any ideas or information I come up with, with you. Good Luck!!!
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You know, you can actually amend your plan to reduce your payment.
The thing is, you need to show something has changed from when you filed BK.Comment
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HHM,
There was no liquidation with our Capter 13. We had been working 4 jobs for 1 1/2 years prior to filing the Chapter 13. We wanted to avoid filing again at all costs. Our attorney told us we had to keep working the 4 jobs in order to "make the plan work". That is when she had us decrease the amount of our living expenses on the means test. She said we had to get the figures to be around 80% pay back or the trustee wouldn't accept the plan. She never suggested for us to quit our part time jobs, probably because we couldn't file for a Chapter 7 for another 1 1/2 years. It was either file a Chapter 13 with our current working conditions or wait out the 1 1/2 years to file a Chapter 7. We were never told about a zero or reduced payment plan. Our attorney was only worried about getting us to an 80% payback. So, our budget to the court didn't represent our actual expenses. Does the attorney get a higher fee the more we can pay back?
I was not asking for anyone"s sympathy and I didn't state it was anybody's fault but our own. I was simply explaining HOW we got into the situation we were in. It's evident you don't work in the medical field with your comment about "brain chemistry".
Anyway, I believe we were poorly represented as you have brought up suggestions that were never presented to us. Would you advise us to seek out a different attorney? Or stick with the one we have since we've paid her $3000 already?Comment
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HHM,
I actually went to my attorney a few months ago about ammending the plan. Explained to her that we were short some weeks due to my being placed on call at the hospital due to low census and unexpected expenses. She told me to find more money from somewhere, either a third job or decrease our living expenses. Well, we can't work much more then we're working now and there is nothing else to decrease in our living expenses unless we want to give up eating!! I even asked her what to do about the new medical bills that are coming in which are in the thousands of dollars. She said we just had to find a way to work the payments into our budget. I'm not one to call her over every little thing either. I might call once every 4 or 5 months with a question. She doesn't seem to want to help us and I feel that is what we are paying her for.Comment
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Hey Kc, my lawyer pulled the same kinda thing on us. I wish I would have found this sight before filing so I would have known what questions to ask. I was traumatized and very embarrased to say the least at the time. I can see the trustee trying to get as much money as possible for his clients, but I would think our lawyers would take our side and try and lead us toward the best payback situation possible. We are paying them to do so. In hindsight I can see the lawyers play us like realtors trying to sell your house. If they can drop your selling price for a quick sale, thats what they do to get there commission and off to the next client. Like I said in my earlier post. I may find myself in a desperate situation where I may have to dismiss, or try and convert just to get some change out of the situation. I`ll be watching your posts, and keep you posted.
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Hey Maddog2112, I sent you a PM. I totally agree with what you are saying. My husband didn't like our attorney from day one. We live in a very small community so the lawyers are slim pickins!! The next closest town is over an hour away. With our work schedules the way they are, we needed to pick somebody close and of course I picked the one with the biggest ad in the phone book!! Go figure, we would get the biggest loser!! It's a shame in your situation because your already 1/2 way through, but 30 more months is a long time to have to suffer. I'll keep you posted on how things progress. Good luck to you!!Comment
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You CANNOT convert to a Chapter 7.
The period to file another 7 is 8 years, filing-date to filing-date.
Your initial Chapter 7 filing was October 2001 ... you must wait till October 2009 to file a new Chapter 7.
You cannot convert after October 2009 ... because the conversion date relates back to the original filing of the Chapter 13, and that was not more than 8 years after the original Chapter 7.
What you can do is dismiss the Chapter 13, and simply re-file a Chapter 7 after October 2009.
Be careful though, if there was any kind of request for relief from stay, and you voluntarily dismiss, then you must wait 180 days after the voluntarily dismissal to refile the Chapter 7. See Bankruptcy Code section 109.Comment
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So, if we volutarily dismiss our case, wait 180 days to file for a Chapter 7, is there anyway to find out before hand if we would qualify for a Chapter 7? Our attorney told us that we could convert to a Chapter 7 in 2009 if we got divorced because our seperate incomes would then qualify us. Did she misinform us? Was HHM incorrect then in suggesting we miss a payment, have attorney file for motion for payment forbearance for a few months then file a motion to convert? We have to do something, but I don't know the best course of action to take. Our attorney has not been helpful.
Thanks!!Comment
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My understanding is, the filing date of the 13 does NOT relate back if you convert to a 7. Conversation is essentially a new case, thus you can convert in Oct 2009 (or whatever the effective 8 year date is in your case). However, I concede that districts may vary on this point.
The operative section of the code is 727(a)(8). All it says is that you may not be granted a discharge in chap 7 if you received a discharge 8 years before the filing date of the petition. A conversion still requires a new petition under chapter 7, and the debtor has an unqualified right to convert to 7 under section 1307(a).
As previously mentioned, the 8 years starts on the date of filing of the prior case, so it is filing date to filing date. But, conversion, at least my understanding is, acts as a new filing for purposes of 727(a)(8)Comment
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HHM
From all the reading I have been doing, that was my undertanding also. Can't believe our attorney could be that off and give us the wrong time frames regarding the waiting period between filings.
Thanks!!Comment
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HHM ... I even have trouble getting other attorneys to read the right section. You must read section 348 of the code to see the effect of conversion ... specifically 348(a) which quite clearly states that the conversion does not change the filing date.
One attorney wanted to know if they could convert after 8 years ... I said no ... they did it anyway ... judge promptly issued show cause order why case should not be dismissed without a discharge.
On this one ... I'm quite certain I'm right.Comment
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