Venting about Chapter 13

[floridian]

my first mistake was to pay my lawyer so much money upfront for a 7... i didnt know at the time that he got more for a 13....
as soon as he got the bucks, a 13 was the target..

i am still waiting for him to get back to me on my deductions.... if he insist on a 13, then damn the torpedoes as i wont spend my golden years as a share-cropper.... i will fight the situation by other means... i will buy with cash only and they can put leins on my no equity home until the pigs fly....

but, once again, i realize i am to blame... had i gone to med school like my daddy wanted instead of becoming a lowly public servant, i wouldnt be in this boat...thank you very much!

[HHM]

Hmm, interesting perspective

1. File chapter 13, and make a single payment to the trustee and go on with your life; or
2. Play cat and mouse with collection agencies and creditor attorney's during your Golden Years, dealing with collection calls, letters, law suites, etc.

To each their own, I guess.

From an objective stand point, it is interesting how predictable the emotional response is to BK, and how it mirrors the emotional response to Grief.
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance.

Most people bounce around between Denial, Anger, and Bargaining early in the process (most will usually skip depression and go straight to acceptance and take action). In the BK context, bargaining is the contemplation of all the "what if" scenarios. If I could only sell my house, if the lender will only modify my mortgage, if my creditors would just work with me, if....if....if....if....

[floridian]

its kind of ironic, that the first thing my lawyer told me, because im collection proof, was i could walk from my house, get a po box and disappear for five years... i laughed, but maybe their is something to be said for that approach...
then again, who knows, this economy may get so bad that small debtors slip thru the cracks.. just kidding!

but again, i did take action... i sold an expensive saxophone that i loved dearly and paid a lawyer to help me thru a chap 7.. now, i have no saxophone and no chap 7 either..

first lawyer said he could get me a 7 let me keep my motorcycles and go on....second lawyer, said i lose the motorcycles, but since SS is not on the means test i get a 7...
now, i lose the cycles, SS counts on the DMI and im toast..

however, if i was wanting to play the system, i could scheme... there is a 26 year old babe who lives accross the street who is looking for a room-mate due to a recent divorce and expenses.... i could marry her in a conveinience agreement... that would get my DMI down to a chap 7... then i could give her what i would give the trustee for a year.....
give me credit for trying!!

[Flamingo]

HHM always has fantastic advice and views...and always right on target. I need to comment as to the denial and how excuses are made and how one in financial devistation attempts the majority of the time to put the blame on something else causing them to file BK. As in our situation, I kept blaming my hubby's job loss at first as the reason we had to file since it took away 70% of our income. However, if we did not have the debt load we had at the time of his job loss, we would not have had to file. It's the debt that causes the filing, not the job loss. Unfortunately, I finally came to realization that it was our doing that put us in that position and then the acceptance comes into play and you do what you have to do with what your state and the BK code require.

[floridian]

with all due respect, i keep hearing about accepting responsibility for the indebtedness that led to a bk... i just dont see the denial... in my own case, there is no doubt that i brought it upon myself and i will be the FIRST to admit it...

however, if im permitted to have an opinion, the bk system has become perverted by a bunch of bureaucrats... just because you are in a bind, doesnt mean you have to go belly up and be happy about it..

you dont know me and i dont know you, but i have been in the criminal justice business my entire adult life and i understand probably as much as anyone how the system works, right on down to common law...(i have a lot to learn about civil law, apples to oranges)

because this is civil law, the trusees can do many things to you that couldnt be done in a criminal case and since most are broke in the first place, your options are few...

in many cases, you could have commited grand larceny for the amount you are claiming in bk and the restitution would not be any more severe.. you would absolutely have more rights and would even get a free lawyer and have your record sealed and it never happened...

sure, its the govt giving you a chance to start over, but its anything but a level playing field and its punitive to the point of vendictive.....

i see a lot of scared people here, waiting on their 341... why should they be afraid, the law is the law and they have paid for and expert lawyer to protect them.. the reason they are scared, is because of the latitude of the trustees to do pretty much as they please to them and what can they do about it.... not much!

so, if not being a cheerleader of this current bk system is whining, denial or any of the other things, im guilty!

yes, im NEW to the civil bk law and have a LOT to learn, but ive got a phd in the legal system itself...

[spearmint]

with all due respect, i keep hearing about accepting responsibility for the indebtedness that led to a bk... i just dont see the denial... in my own case, there is no doubt that i brought it upon myself and i will be the FIRST to admit it...

however, if im permitted to have an opinion, the bk system has become perverted by a bunch of bureaucrats... just because you are in a bind, doesnt mean you have to go belly up and be happy about it..

you dont know me and i dont know you, but i have been in the criminal justice business my entire adult life and i understand probably as much as anyone how the system works, right on down to common law...

because this is civil law, the trusees can do many things to you that couldnt be done in a criminal case and since most are broke in the first place, your options are few...

in many cases, you could have commited grand larceny for the amount you are claiming in bk and the resitution would not be any more severe.. you would absolutely have more rights and would even get a free lawyer and have your record sealed and it never happened...

sure, its the govt giving you a chance to start over, but its anything but a level playing field and its punitive to the point of vendictive.....

i see a lot of scared people here, waiting on their 341... why should they be afraid, the law is the law and they have paid for and expert lawyer to protect them.. the reason they are scared, is because of the latitude of the trustees to do pretty much as they please to them and what can they do about it.... not much!

so, if not being a cheerleader of this current bk system is whining, denial or any of the other things, im guilty!

yes, im NEW to the civil bk law and have a LOT to learn, but ive got a phd in the legal system itself...

Thank you! I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[fltoo]

i see a lot of scared people here, waiting on their 341... why should they be afraid, the law is the law and they have paid for and expert lawyer to protect them.. the reason they are scared, is because of the latitude of the trustees to do pretty much as they please to them and what can they do about it.... not much!
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And it is this attitude that propagates the fear. The trustee has ONE job, to look for assets. They cannot do as they please, since there are state and federal guidelines. They do not have power over you, only over the BK estate assets.

People are initially scared due to fear of the unknown. Once they learn about what to expect in a BK, most people calm down and take action and overcome the obstacle pretty darn well. There are sooooooo many people here that have "done" what they had to do and gone on with their life, happy that they were given a chance to start over.
There will always be people who are scared, no matter how much someone appeases them. Then, there are those who relish playing the victim. These people are like this due to their personalities, some can't help it. They are not like this due to the "latitude" of the trustee.

Again, the trustee has one and only one job. The BK law is what it is. You cannot keep assets that you cannot exempt, plain and simple. You want to file for BK, then you follow the rules. No one is forcing you to file.

If you want to skirt the system, knock yourself out. You won't be the first and you won't be the last.

[Flamingo]

with all due respect, i keep hearing about accepting responsibility for the indebtedness that led to a bk... i just dont see the denial... in my own case, there is no doubt that i brought it upon myself and i will be the FIRST to admit it...

however, if im permitted to have an opinion, the bk system has become perverted by a bunch of bureaucrats... just because you are in a bind, doesnt mean you have to go belly up and be happy about it..

you dont know me and i dont know you, but i have been in the criminal justice business my entire adult life and i understand probably as much as anyone how the system works, right on down to common law...(i have a lot to learn about civil law, apples to oranges)

because this is civil law, the trusees can do many things to you that couldnt be done in a criminal case and since most are broke in the first place, your options are few...

in many cases, you could have commited grand larceny for the amount you are claiming in bk and the restitution would not be any more severe.. you would absolutely have more rights and would even get a free lawyer and have your record sealed and it never happened...

sure, its the govt giving you a chance to start over, but its anything but a level playing field and its punitive to the point of vendictive.....

i see a lot of scared people here, waiting on their 341... why should they be afraid, the law is the law and they have paid for and expert lawyer to protect them.. the reason they are scared, is because of the latitude of the trustees to do pretty much as they please to them and what can they do about it.... not much!

so, if not being a cheerleader of this current bk system is whining, denial or any of the other things, im guilty!

yes, im NEW to the civil bk law and have a LOT to learn, but ive got a phd in the legal system itself...

I agree with you and realize what you are saying; what many of us fail to or just don't realize is that the laws are in place due to those who abused the system making things harder for everyone or those who in the past (and still do) use filing Bk as a budgeting tool. For those of us who really need to file BK, we get put under the microscope by all involved. I compare it always to a classroom full of children where the teacher confronts them asking who put the dead frog on her desk (or anything else you want to think of!), and no one raises their hand to take the blame so the entire class gets punished.

You do have it wrong about Trustees doing as they please. Trustees have to operate under the laws so they cannot do as they please. Their work is monitored so they have to abide by the Code and whatever state laws apply.

The BK system, as you state, has not become "perverted by a bunch of bureaucrats," what you are seeing and going through is the result of years of changes to eliminate fraud and abuse. It's so easy to blame the trustee or the attorney, but they are only going by the laws that bind them.

I certainly know where you are coming from and how it feels to have your hands tied and stuck and there isn't a darned thing one can do about it. It's awful. However, in the long run, it gets done and is over and one can look back and find it amazing how one got through it and how better things are.

[floridian]

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And it is this attitude that propagates the fear. The trustee has ONE job, to look for assets. They cannot do as they please, since there are state and federal guidelines. They do not have power over you, only over the BK estate assets.


.

thats a good theory and its how its supposed to be.. however, in the real world it simply doesnt work out like that..
ive been reading these lawyers blogs and its a shot in the dark in many cases....the law is more vague than in criminal cases and you are pretty much at thier mercy..

sure there is abuse, as there is in everything dealing with human nature.. these laws, however were modified by congress at the pressure of paid lobbyist... their seems to be a credibility problem with many of them i might add.. its nice that you think that cc companies dont abuse the system..

even my lawyer said some things will depend on who the trustee is... how can that be??



you are dealing with human nature and a law that is far more vague than criminal law.. if you get a raw deal, who you gonna call, ghost busters?

so they dont have power over you? they control your quality of life via your purse strings..

my problems are small, just a few cc.... but there are people here that are really hurting and to strip them to the bone just because you can, is wrong....

my bud has a family of 4 and was supposed to live off 600 bucks per month, until he finally got converted to a seven..

once again, thats my opinion, your mileage may vary...

[fltoo]

these laws, however were modified by congress at the pressure of paid lobbyist... their seems to be a credibility problem with many of them i might add..
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Got that right and the lobbyists had Uncle Joe Biden as their leader.



its nice that you think that cc companies dont abuse the system.
-------------------------
Who said this? No one mentioned cc companies in any of the above posts.

[Flamingo]

One must also remember, one doesn't have to file bankruptcy. It's just an option that is available just as any other option available has rules and regulations also. One can also do absolutely nothing and have no protection whatsoever.

[fltoo]

even my lawyer said some things will depend on who the trustee is... how can that be??



Because they have to use their discretion as to what they think is worth going after. They get paid when they recover assets. Doesn't mean they don't work within the fed and state guidelines.

[floridian]

im not saying that i wont eventually file bk to avoid the aggravation.... i just think i should know the probable outcome before i go and not have to hope i get lucky...sort of like a divorce, everyone knows ahead of time whats going to happen, and its merely signed off..

if you were to go to traffic court and know that the judge got paid according to what he collected from you, im sure you would cry foul..

[floridian]

[QUOTE=fltoo;250681
its nice that you think that cc companies dont abuse the system.
-------------------------
Who said this? No one mentioned cc companies in any of the above posts.[/QUOTE]

i stand corrected!

just for the record, i dont feel like a victim or anything else... actually i am a very fortunate person and because my life is so easy, sometime i get a little petty... basically, its just my writing style and i dont want to sound abrupt...

some of the folk on this forum have serious stress in their lives and it almost embarrasses me to complain about my small problems..

[fltoo]

Hey, any man with a bike has small or no problems!

I still have my dad's first one, a '46 suicide shift. I bet you even know what brand it is.