NO money left????

[Flamingo]

I have a brother who has diagnosed mental health issues, and for him to just keep things going day by day is a job in itself. He requires both counseling and medication, and believe me finding a counselor that he could connect with and trust was a LONG process. Once that relationship is in place it's hard to give up, so I don't agree with those that would downplay the importance of that. Counseling is not always for a short term problem, if you've never encountered the long, chronic, painful to watch need for it, then consider yourself blessed and please just accept that it happens and leave the rest to the medical professionals. {{Steps down from Soap Box}}

The budget numbers do not look out of line to me, but I'm new at this. Putting it all together though, it kind of looks to me as if with that counseling there may be enough expense here to convert to a Chapter 7?? Not on the first part of the means test but the second? The OP indicated the Trustee has already taken that counseling amount as legitimate, and the plan is only paying 1% to unsecured, so the majority of the 2098 is house and car payment which I believe would come out in Part 2.

Am I misreading this? Otherwise I don't see much room to maneuver here, maybe cutting a bit on phones and recreation. That 350 mile commute is a killer and eats up most of that car allowance just in gas.

Counseling involves a lot of things...from minor marital problems to full blown major counseling for any number of medical conditions. If the counseling is for minor issues and can be extended out over a longer period where sessions are not required weekly or monthly if there is no urgency, that is a way to free up some funds in a Chapter 13. As I mentioned in my previous posting, if that is not possible, there are other options. They are a household of two and are running into what many run into after filing - expenses occuring after the filing. If they cannot cut back on something going out of the household (i.e., food, medical, entertainment, etc.), they will find it increasingly hard to make that Plan or other payments. Those of us in and out of a Chapter 13 have been through this and know the situation which is hard to cope with at first because it is a huge lifestyle change to cut back on things we did before, cope with increasing costs, etc. That is why a lot of folks want to file a Chapter 7 - they don't have to go through this, but the new law now makes more folks file Chapter 13 instead of Chapter 7, and Chapter 13 is not easy.

Chapter 13 is a big shock and takes several months of payments to actually adjust, and toss in a major car repair occuring several months after filing and the anxiety can be overwhelming if you don't have the funds to pay for it.

The OP will have to actually figure out if there is any way they can cut back on anything to pay the upcoming after filing bills and if it presents a major problem, contact their attorney for any relief possible.

[jwbbx]

Flamingo,
The fact that the counseling was an allowed expense in the plan approved by the Trustee certainly led me to believe it was not a 'Minor Issue'. I just believe it's rude to continue second guessing the OPs needs in ever bolder fonts.

[Flamingo]

Flamingo,
The fact that the counseling was an allowed expense in the plan approved by the Trustee certainly led me to believe it was not a 'Minor Issue'. I just believe it's rude to continue second guessing the OPs needs in ever bolder fonts.

I use the same font for every reply I have done on here (unless it doesn't work!) and I don't feel it's rude to make a valid suggestion to someone looking to get by on a Chapter 13 Plan. Been there! There is no "second guessing" involved - the OP knows whether or not the counseling is needed/required and someone else questioned the amount of the counseling in a response. I am sorry a suggestion upsets you but it was not directed to you but to the OP as an example to cut expenses if they, in fact, can actually be cut.

[ozzy866]

No offense was taken here. I am very grateful for all the suggestions. The counseling is 100% needed so that is not an expense that can be cut. This forum is an amazing resource of information. This chapter 13 has to work...We will do anything it takes to make it work.
Thanks for all suggestions.....
Oz

[Cali]

Ozzy I wish you and your wife good luck in the plan!

[CindyLou]

I don't think you have allow enough for homemaintenance and you have not allowed anything for savings. One emergency and you are down for the count.

Having you checked into some non-profit counseling services?
Even for out of network, 550 seems high.

What is the breakdown on your housing and car payment?

I do not think this a realistic or doable budget at all! You have no wiggle room. I think its top heavy from the start.....1/3 of your income should be allotted for housing...your housing and one car are about 50% of your income.

I don't really see much in the budget below that can be changed, except maybe a couple of things, but then I think you need to add back in some things as I mentioned above.

Good luck and hopefully you can figure out something.

[ozzy866]

Do you really think so?
We thought we might be able to do this..........
Anyone??????????
Oz

[BigJohn]

Your plan looks reasonable. I think what you have to do is take one day at a time.

I think what you need to do is get some people into your network, otherwards some close friends. I have been there and I find the few people I can talk with, it helps. Sometimes these conversations are all that is needed in order to get me thru the day.

[rrockinggramma]

will you really spend all of those amounts each and every month. 500 for food is a general. Doesn't mean that is what you will spend or have to spend. There are places where you can cut corners to make it. Granted, it won't be easy. But it can happen.

[CindyLou]

I wish you good luck too. I just wanted to say that I was not trying to discourage you. Anything can be done with hard work and dedication. I was just giving my opinion. But I really do wish you the best!!!

Sincerely,
CindyLou

[Flamingo]

Do you really think so?
We thought we might be able to do this..........
Anyone??????????
Oz

As others have stated, your plan looks reasonable; of course others have their own opinion and I am assuming, as happens with most, that once you start a Chapter 13 Plan, you just don't think you can do it. You are a family of two, no children. However, if you feel you just cannot do it and feel there is no way to reduce some of the expenditures you list and have a hard time changing your lifestyle in any way to accomodate making your plan payments, sit down and discuss with your attorney. You will get varying opinions on here, but it is you who lives with the situation.

Again, Chapter 13 is a big shock financially to get through. You really have to learn to cut out a lot of things and cope with bills after filing that you have to pay. Some people on here can tell of of the years they spent cooking hot dogs and beans to get by. Many resort to yard sales or selling items on eBay or otherwise to get extra funds. Then, as is happening to all of us eitiher discharged or still in a 13, there is the increased cost of food or gas and increased medical costs. It can be overwhelming.

We ourselves had many sleepless nights trying to figure out where we would come up with gas money to get to work the next day on our Plan. We did it, as others also do, and it was a struggle, but we kept our house and successfully completed the Plan, and at times we still wonder how we did it.

Folks on this forum have been through what you are going through and can helpl The other posters suggestion as to sitting down with friends you can talk to is another good suggestion, but remember you have paid your attorney to represent you in this and your attorney knows your finances; otherwise he/she would not have allowed the Plan to go through and the Trustee would not have approved if he/she thought there was a chance you could not successfully complete the Plan.

[rrockinggramma]

there use to be a calculator that listed everyting and many times posters would state that there were things in the list not thought of. Wonder where that link is. Perhaps the OP should look at that to make sure everything is included.

[MOMof3]

It sounds to me like maybe you are in over your head with your mortgage...do you have arrears in the plan as well? Did you file to save your home? You might want to consider dumping the house if that's an option. Can you rent for cheaper? The problem is that even when you are done w/your 13, your money will still be tight because the payments for the mortgage will continue. Maybe you can't afford it? If you give up the house, can you convert to a chapter 7? I'm guessing you are not over the median income in your area at $4200/mo take home for 2 income---but I could be wrong. I don't think I could live on the budget you have. There is no money available to save for incidentals like home maintenance, car maintenance, etc... It will only take one thing to blow your budget & make you fail. I would talk to your lawyer about why you are even paying 1% to unsecureds.

[ozzy866]

House is being paid for under the plan. It was current when we filed. The mortgage payment before which included escrowed taxes and insurance was $1316.57.

Our carpayment was current and the payment was $551.62. We owe about $9000 more than the car is worth because we traded and put loss value in current car loan....I know BIG mistake. This was done about 6 months ago so we CAN'T cram down.

1316.57 + 551.62 = $1868.19

Our Trustee payment = 2098.19

This is without all the CC payments. I don't know how we stayed afloat this long...............

Again here is what my lawyer submitted to the Trustee and we OK'd it at the 341..........
On the right is what we may be able to shave off to put on another item or save......
Trustee Payment 2098.19.......0
Gas & Elec 160.............0
Water/Sewer 60..............0
Phone 80..............0
TV/Internet/Trash 115............Cancel intern/tv....100
Home Main/Repair 30
Food 500...............200
Clothing 50
Laundry 30
Medical/dental 45
Transportation/Not Car Pay 350
Recreation 50
Auto Insurance 125
Counseling 550............100
TOTAL 4243.19.........save 400

4243.19 - 400 = $3843.19


Wife and I TOTAL INCOME 4242.76


4242.76 - 3843.19 = 399.57 left

No internet
No cable TV
Haircuts????
medical deduct?????

I am willing to do anything to make this work....
We would like to keep our house because if we don't the unsecured creditors will just eat that savings even if we can rent something.

We are so upside down on our car but it was purchased not long ago so no cram down. I dont know if we could do something with this car loan.

We had our 341 but not confirmed yet....

Any more suggestions......we are very concerned but willing to do anything....

[Flamingo]

You have a goal here and that is to save your house which I am assuming you have a good bit of equity in or you would try to go for a Chapter 7. You will need to figure out if you can actually survive this Plan with what you have listed above. Our Plan was tight also but if you adjust your lifestyle to accomodate the Plan, it can be done; the main issue is lack of funds for future bills like car repairs, etc. That hits everyone in a 13. Somehow to make it through the Plan, you have to have a source of funds for house, car and other items that will arise during your Plan years. That is why I suggested in an early post if there was anything that could be shaved down (which you have done somewhat above) to help you out and, along with others, questioned the amount for the counseling which, of course, cannot be eliminated at this time. So you are left in a spot where either you will have to adjust to accomodate all this to keep your house, talk to your attorney about a possible modification if you simply cannot make those Plan payments or look into selling the house/Chapter 7 if possible. Bankruptcy is not easy with all that is invovled. Chapter 13 is especially hard due to all the adjustments and lifestyle changes that need to be done (it's tough when your friends all go on vacation and you can't go, etc.) and it's a cash only/no credit basis so when the roof starts leaking or the hot water heater goes, it can be an awful situation with no money to get the repair done.

You have a few decisions to make here; as I also suggested previously, some folks have yard sales, sell on eBay, have marvelous friends/family that can help out at times, or as we did, barter for stuff (if you have friends/family that do car repairs or house repairs, ask for help there by offering to cut their lawn, babysit, etc. in return). There are lots of little ways to cut corners during a Chapter 13.

Again, this is just my opinion as to a few things that you have posted and that I have posted previously. The ultimate decision is yours as to your particular situation.