Preparing for the worst

[tcauvet]

This is what we believe- God owns all the gold and all the silver. He only asks for one tenth back. When you repent of your sin, and accept Him as savior, you become part of His family. He loves you so much that he sent His son to die on a cross 2000 years ago. He has a special interest in how you do. His word promises that he will never leave you or forsake you. But, its not a one way street. He knows we put a lot of emotional value to money. So asking us to tithe is His way of examining our hearts, I think. For me, the tithe is a way of showing God that I have faith in Him (and honoring Him like the previous poster wrote). God promises that He will pull you up out of the darkness and set you on a rock! He promises that He will bless you. malachai 3:8-11 - Test me in this (the tithe)- and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of Heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
How can I afford to tithe with all I'm going thorugh? The real question is how could I afford NOT to tithe with all I'm going through. sorry about the lengthy post, but you asked.

[Help!]

The cars

Wow, two new cars owned outright is going to be a tempting target for the trustee, who can be expected to oppose your motion to dismiss. Haven't seen many exemption schemes that would cover even the most basic newer auto that doesn't have a secured debt behind it. I wish you luck.

I know, we never would have done this with the money we took out of our 401K but our attorney told us to do this. He said we could exempt $20K of their $30K value and pay the trustee $10K. Like I said, really bad legal advice!

[Help!]

On throwing in the towel...

Help! It has only been a week or so since your 341 and you are throwing in the towel? Where is your stick-to-it-iveness? Some 7's have quirks, but that does not mean it won't fly in the end. Take a little time and read the threads that I started about my case. Read the wonderful responses that I received from this group. My wife and I filed pro se on November 2, 2007 and were discharged on April 14th, 2008 - but not before we were put through the wringer with the DOJ and the U S Trustee. We did not have two newer cars free and clear but we had other issues. Check it out.

Oh yes, throwing in the towel! We are $60K above the median and never met the means test. Almost all of the figures in the means test that allowed us to pass it are expenses in excess of the IRS standard that are not "reasonable" or allowed, despite what our attorney advised us. I congratulate you on getting through your Ch. 7 (pro se even... WOW!!), but in our case we truly never should have filed and continuing to push this is just wrong. I am curious, though, and I'll check out your story.

Thanks for the reply, though!

[rfassett]

Who said they were not reasonable or allowed?

[Help!]

No one, directly. But would you want to try to argue "special circumstances necessitating private schooling" with the UST without a good lawyer? Not me!

[rfassett]

Hey, I have been through the wringer on mine - even upto and including the Rule 2004 examination - and pro se at that. So, yes, I would have no problem discussing (not arguing) the special circumstances with the UST. In fact, I had to justify a 65 mile (one way) commute and all of the costs associated with that, including a more gas efficient automobile and including additional food costs and including tolls, etc, for my son to finish his last two years of high school at a brand new "state of the art" performing arts high school because he had been bullied out of his "home" school district. (It just so happened that this was the closest available school.) And God has blessed us beyond measure through all of this.

Contrary to the way you are thinking, the UST is not "out to get you". The UST is simply trying to be certain that the system is not abused. If you believe in your justification, then you should have no problem discussing it with the UST. My experiences with the UST's have been very positive. They are very friendly, compassionate and understanding, but they do have a job to do. And that job is to be sure that the system is not abused.

My reclollection is that your first experience with the UST was less than positive. My recollecion is also that that negative experience had more to do with your attorney than it did the UST.

So yes, explore and analyze the "worst case" scenario, but don't help it come to fruition.

Best of all things good to you and yours! God Bless!

[Help!]

rfassett - Ok, you have convinced me that I could successfully justify the tuition cost, at least for our oldest (medical diagnosis of autism and three years of special ed.). Maybe filing Ch. 13 isn't the worst case scenario then. Either way, thank you for your advice!

[CindyLou]

The trustee will not ever force you do things like stop tithing or taking your kids out of private school....the real question is whether they will allow them as expenses in turn reducing your disposable income. So the real question is, will you be able to afford these things after you make your payments...that's the real question. Good luck I hope it all goes well.

[Help!]

Thanks all for the replies. I read rfassett's story and have decided to continue with the Ch. 7 after all. I dropped off 347 pages of the documents requested by the UST and I now have a good grasp of the calculations. I also understand now why my petition is such as mess (with the exception of one or two numbers every amount questioned by the UST needs to be changed). The paralegal who put together my Ch. 7 usually does 13's but filled in for the Ch. 7 paralegal. He obviously didn't understand the means test calculations and I didn't question him. Going through the process of calculating everything myself was exhausting but it was the best thing that could have happened to me. The question now is... with all the errors made in my petition will the trustee allow these things to be fixed or am I on the fast track for a dismissal? At least it won't be with prejudice because I have fully documented those means test calculations and with the detail of explanation I provided there is *no* way anyone could assert that we are trying to hide anything.

If it is dismissed, I plan to re-file Ch. 7 as soon as possible (pro se this time!). It's pretty clear that even though we have a high income we have some very large expenses that leave us nothing to put toward a payment plan. I can't see any argument with the medical expenses since those are completely out of our control. The only way I see the possibility of pushing us into a 13 is if we are told we need to put our student loan into forbearance and pull our kids from private school. Even if this were the case, our net income would only be $200 on schedule J. If we are pushed on these, I will push back!

Still preparing for the worst, but up for the challenge because I know we've done nothing wrong (other than select an attorney from the yellow pages and live in denial about how bad our finances were for 5 years). rfassett, if you're reading this, I have a feeling I am headed down the same road you've traveled. Your posts are tremendously helpful as now I know what will likely happen next. Having some knowledge of the worst case scenario takes away a lot of the fear. Kudos to you for your perseverance and for helping others out in this forum!

[Bandit]

Um, I truly am trying not to offend here as tithing is unfamiliar to me.

But, can someone explain to me why anyone in dire straights (i.e in BK) would be donating money to a church, other organization , or anyone else?

The church expects it?

I don't get it,

ep

I dont get it either. I have met tons of people who call themselves christian who reject the entire notion of paying a demanded 10% like that.
besides, the whole idea is that if you give that 10% then their god is suppose to take of you, (keep on casting your bread upon the water Joel Olsteen type) yet they still end up in financial problems....makes no sense.

I have heard it both ways though in the christian religion, some give gifts & offerings & that is good enough & others demand a set amount of your pay or else you are not allowed to be a member & you go the the devil pit

[Bandit]

Having some knowledge of the worst case scenario takes away a lot of the fear. Kudos to you for your perseverance and for helping others out in this forum!

yes it does and your are very wise to have that understanding. it also helps you make the best decisions knowing the best extreme & the worse extreme.

Kudos to you, Help!

[Help!]

Depends on the religion I guess. Yes, there are some crazies out there! No one should be judged on how much they decide to give. There are plenty of people who go to church every Sunday, contribute 10% of their income and are the meanest, greediest, most corrupt people you'd ever want to meet. There are others who rarely set foot in church, don't put much into the collection basket when they do but are true christians (at least in my opinion) because of the way they treat others.

I don't look at it as a duty or something demanded of me. I know where the money I contribute goes... Improvements and resources for the school, programs to help those in need, maintenance of the actual buildings, etc. and I feel that I want to support the parish community. It is my family.

[rfassett]

Help! God Bless! I wish you and yours the best of luck! We are in this together and this board has been a God-send to me and I am sure to you. Keep us posted!

[Pizza]

I dont get it either. I have met tons of people who call themselves christian who reject the entire notion of paying a demanded 10% like that.
besides, the whole idea is that if you give that 10% then their god is suppose to take of you, (keep on casting your bread upon the water Joel Olsteen type) yet they still end up in financial problems....makes no sense.

I have heard it both ways though in the christian religion, some give gifts & offerings & that is good enough & others demand a set amount of your pay or else you are not allowed to be a member & you go the the devil pit

hell, the last church I went to gave us a card to fill out that looked just like a payment plan on a charge account... that was years ago and I haven't gone to church in a long time.

Of course it's got to be awful hard to base one's disposable income on their religion... I could see some kind of huge class a lawsuit coming up.

[MomIcantFindmy]

Help! I am so glad you are pressing on. Please keep us posted and know that we are all with you!!