Chapter 13 time to confirmation

[Flamingo]

Sorry, in my previous post, our 341 was in June 2002 and we were confirmed in September 2002, not 2006 as I had typed (we were old law). We filed 4/2002, 341 in 6/2002 and confirmed 9/2002. Our Plan indicated we had to start refinancing at month 55 to pay off balance of Plan at month 60. Nothing extended to September 2006 (5 years from confirmation).

[rrockinggramma]

I would be interested to know if it is just in Michigan or elsewhere as well. My understanding was that it was everywhere. Your plan is considered 36 months from the date it is confirmed.

[woeisme]

I am in a 60 month plan that didn't confirm until 4 months after filing. I made 4 payments before confirmation. But by law the plan cannot run longer than 60 months, so this whole "the plan doesn't start until after confirmation" thing makes no sense as far as I am concerned, they can't take 64 payments, by law they are limited to 60. I think something is screwy here.

[lrprn]

Folks, let's step back here for a moment. Just because your trustee doesn't immediately disburse the payments you are sending in doesn't mean your plan will be pushed out for longer.

Once the trustee does start the disbursement, he/she just sends out more from the larger accumulated cash pile to your creditors than they would receive if the trustee disburses every month, that's all. And the trustee takes his/her administrative fee out of the total that's accumulated, not just out of every monthly payment. There's no less and no more money for the trustee and no extension of payments for you.

Our plan wasn't confirmed for 15 months. On our trustee's 13Network website, our discharge date is still set for May 31, 2011, exactly 60 payments after we filed.

Depending on what happens along the way to confirmation, the plan payment may increase or decrease. But the plan, by law, cannot be less than 36 months or more than 60 months in length.

RG and INE, I'd be very interested in how your trustee is explaining your plan countdowns start at confirmation, not at filing. That makes no sense and is in direct conflict with the bk law provision that the plan cannot exceed 60 months.

[rrockinggramma]

well my plan is only 36 months but according to the trustee it is BK law and I have been googling and it seems that many imply after confirmation because your plan is then considered a "viable" plan by the court. Up until confirmation, it is not considered viable. All I know is that I spent the weekend absolutely bummed.

Maybe because you took so long to be confirmed, the trustee isn't going to penalize you for that because in my research it gives a timeline for trustees to confirm plans etc

[itneverends]

lrprn- I understand completely about the delay in payments vs. disbursments. That is not what is happening here. More background-

• I have made every payment on time
• There have been NO modification to my plan at all
• The whole time, 13datacenter has shown a exact count down of 36 payments paying off at the agreed upon 67%
• There are no secured creditors paid in my plan, student loans and unsecured only.
• My current balance owed on 13datacenter is ZERO and the balance on hand is a couple thousand and growing.
• The trustee made no disbursment in May

Since I was past the 36 payments and they are still taking money out of my check, I contacted my lawyer to see what I needed to do to stop it. I was not very concerned at that point because I thought anything extra paid would come back to me. But I was told since I was not confirmed until July, my plan would run until then. Not April when I started my payments. I was also told the additonal payments I make will simply up the percentage paid to the creditors. Based on my monthly payment, this means an extra $8-$10k paid in. The confirmation date is 7/29 and I get paid 7/31, so they will probably hit that check as well.

I have been in shock since I found this out because I had thought the same thing everyone else did, 36 payments and done. Then I saw grandma's post and had to jump in. Based on her previous postings, I know we have the same trustee.

This is from the Debtor Handbook posted on the trustees site:

"PLAN LENGTH: It is important to remember that the length is only a close approximation at the beginning of your plan. Counting the months remaining in the length of your plan begins with the month in which your plan was confirmed by the court. The length is dependent on many factors which may change during the course of your plan. It is very rare for a plan to last the exact number of months it was originally scheduled to run. There are several reasons for this. Interest, which may or may not be paid to your creditors depending on your particular plan, adds length and dollars to your plan. Interest rates may change. It often happens that a creditor files for a larger amount than you thought you owed. You may have forgotten a creditor which must be added to your plan. Also, if unsecured creditors are being paid back less than 100% of their debt, and that payback percentage is reached before your time has ended, the percent to unsecureds will be increased."

Go here and click on the handbook link:
http://www.det13.com/library.shtml

Trust me, I have been over this 18 different ways because I could not believe I am on the hook for another 4 months. I thought it was over.

I had the exact same thought as everyone else as far as what if I had been in a 60 month plan? But it appears the position is I am still in a 36 month plan, just that the 36 months did not start until confirmation. I think that is the answer they would use for a 60 month plan. It is 60 months, just that the counter doesn't start until confirmation.

It took 4 months to confirm, at least an extra month because of my unresponsive lawyer dragging it out. I can not image if confirmation had dragged on for 8-12 months like some I have read on this board.

I even went as far as checking Pacer for other cases filed at the same time and the only cases that are closed or show any movement toward closing are cases that paid off at 100%.

Sitting here pulling my hair out; the extra payments are almost the exact cost of the new roof my house desperately needs.

[Pumpkin729]

I would be interested to know if it is just in Michigan or elsewhere as well. My understanding was that it was everywhere. Your plan is considered 36 months from the date it is confirmed.

OMG!!! Now I am really confused!!! We are old law, filed 8/2004 at the 43/60 month mark we sent in our buy out payment. We were not comfirmed until a year after (8/2005) our case was filed. We are currently awaiting our discharged. Received a letter from trustee to stop making payments and one that says our case is closed completed.

I asked our lawyer can the creditors object to the buy out, he said NO. So, maybe it is just in Michigan I don't know.

[cubfan300]

I just read the handbook that itjustneverends linked to. If I were you and rrockinggrandma, you better call your attorney because that statement is plain ILLEGAL. Your plan starts on the day that you file. No question about it, it is the law. For the handbook to state in very plain language that the clock starts with the confirmation is not right. In addition, the language around that sentence is very vague with statements like,
"It is very rare for a plan to last the exact number of months it was originally scheduled to run. There are several reasons for this. Interest, which may or may not be paid to your creditors depending on your particular plan, adds length and dollars to your plan. Interest rates may change. It often happens that a creditor files for a larger amount than you thought you owed."
I would definitely find out what is going on here if I were you. Do not take this lying down!

[Flamingo]

Unless there have been adjustments or modifications along the way in a Plan, the amount on your Plan Order at Confirmation, including your Trustee's fees, is the amount that is paid out over the set course of your plan at the period of time indicated (36 to 60 months). The Plan payments, as lrpn stated, paid prior to your confirmation, are paid out after confirmation in a larger sum at first and will go to the priority creditors or the attorney if part of your filing fee is included in the Plan. As you pay your Plan payments, they are disbursed monthly and you should receive a report every 6 months from the Trustee as to your Plan status and the amounts paid out and the amounts received from you. Unless there is some sort of adjustment in the Plan, those payments received will cover the amount of your Plan at confirmation at the end of the determined last payment (i.e., 36 months).

You should not end up paying thousands of dollars more into your Plan than what is determined on the amount stated at confirmation. Either something was done to the two plans being discussed in here that the filers are not aware of or someone is trying to pull a fast one in trusteesville.

There are times when debtors send in one or two payments more beyond their last payment as either instructed by their attorney until advised to stop by the Trustee but those payments are refunded to the debtor when the Plan is audited and then discharged and do not usually exceed one or two payments; they do not continue until confirmation, which could be six months past the date of the first payment made in the Plan.

[rrockinggramma]

well my trustee has raised my percentage to unsecured now 3 times. Michigan is lenient in many things but not in this I guess. No disbursements were made in my plan until after my confirmation. And I am not in 100 percent payback so my 36 month mark is November. I am glad that this rule doesn't apply to everyone here. That would be a real bummer for everyone. But for Michigan, it is date of confirmation. (and then the regular slow process of 90 days to discharge.)

and yes we have the same trustee. I believe that it is also because the plan is 36 months not 60.

[itneverends]

No help here......

What my lawyer is telling me in regards to the plan length:


"XXXXX:

I would like to help you. I am sorry if this is frustrating for you. To answer your questions regarding having made a 38th payment, please understand that your Plan length does not begin to run until your Plan has been confirmed. Therefore, your 36 months did not start until that date. You would have made some payments prior to confirmation. Those payments sat in an escrow account with the Trustee until your plan was confirmed by the Court. Then, the Trustee began disbursing those payments to creditors. "


You want to know how mad I am at this moment?? This is from my own lawyer's website:

"Minimum length of payments under Chapter 13 Plan

Unless all allowed claims are paid sooner, plan payments must continue for the three-year period beginning on the date that the first payment is due under the plan. During this period, the plan must provide that all of the debtor's projected disposable income is committed to the plan. (This requirement comes into effect only if the trustee or the holder of an allowed unsecured claim objects; it has been our experience that the trustee will always object.)"

Even though it is right there on thier site, I am now being told otherwise.

[catalina2225]

I just called my attorney and told her what my letter from the trustee said about the countdown starts at the date of confirmation and she said that was wrong and for me to fax my letter to her. She is being swamped by calls so, I'm not the only one to receive a letter. Sure hopes this gets settled soon since I was planning my retirement around the time of discharge and besides, I just want this over with.

[rrockinggramma]

are you in Michigan?

[catalina2225]

No. I'm in Arizona

[rrockinggramma]

well I hope you get this settled soon as well. I believe that just as in many rules of BK, different areas have different rules.