Question regarding upping payment

[sophie]

Well we originally filed in August of last year and we still haven't had our confirmation hearing yet. We converted to a 13 in March and our meetings have been rescheduled 5 times now.(The trustee has objected to our plan). Anyway my question is this. I've been reading about peoples payments who have increased. Besides a salary increase why would and how could the payment to the trustee increase? Just randomly could they write and say we are increasing your plan?
Thanks for your help.

[MajorMike]

Did they object to your plan 5 times? If so, why isn't your attorney getting it right?

[lrprn]

Did they object to your plan 5 times? If so, why isn't your attorney getting it right?

MM, please read more carefully before you jump in with both feet making judgments about what you don't understand. You have no idea if her lawyer is "getting it right" or not, and stating what you did in such a judgmental way is doing Sophie and her lawyer a dis-service.

Just because a Ch 13 confirmation hearing has been rescheduled five times does not mean five different objections were filed by Sophie's trustee. More likely her lawyer and the trustee are maneuvering behind the scenes exactly as they are supposed to do and haven't reached a compromise yet.

If you don't understand Ch 13 and how it operates when confirmation is delayed, in the future please don't post.

[lrprn]

Besides a salary increase why would and how could the payment to the trustee increase? Just randomly could they write and say we are increasing your plan?
Thanks for your help.

The trustee can't just increase your monthly payment because he/she thinks you can pay more.

The trustee HAS to prove their interpretation justifying an increased payment by using the Means Test and Schedules results, or case law decisions that are pertinent to your case.

What trustee objections are you and your lawyer dealing with that are delaying your confirmation?

[sophie]

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. The reason we were postponed so many times was a mixture of Chap. 7 & now Chap 13. I was just lumping it all into one category I guess because to me, I've been going through this for over a year without an outcome of what is to happen, so I feel as if I haven't "started on my 5 year journey yet.

We were suppose to go to court in July for confirmation (Chapt 13) but the trustee objected to our plan. Our lawyer said this is the facts (the means test and schedules, etc.). He is still objecting so I guess the judge will have to rule next month.

My real question and what I was trying to ask (not very well I guess) was about the payment being raised after the plan is confirmed. From what I'm reading people are saying they were in the plan for a year or 2 and the plan got raised. That's really what I wanted to know. How, after you are confirmed and on your road to recovery, can it get raised.

Again, I am very sorry for the confusion. I do appreciate all of your help and honestly don't know what I would've done this past year if it hadn't been for all your insight and advice. If it wasn't for this board I wouldn't even thought of some of the questions I needed to raise. Your advise to me is priceless.

Thank you so much!!

[lrprn]

My real question and what I was trying to ask (not very well I guess) was about the payment being raised after the plan is confirmed. From what I'm reading people are saying they were in the plan for a year or 2 and the plan got raised. That's really what I wanted to know. How, after you are confirmed and on your road to recovery, can it get raised.

If your income increases significantly (usually more than 10% at once) or your expenses drop significantly (for ex, you decide to surrender your house), then your trustee may decide that you have enough of a change in your disposable income to warrant increasing your payment and will go back to the court to request it. If your income doesn't increase and/or your expenses don't decrease significantly over the life of your plan, there's no reason for your payment to change.

No need at all to apologize....we're here to help and when the situation is complex like yours is, it's hard to explain in just a few words.

[sophie]

IRPRN, Thank you so much! One more thing.

Is the only way the trustee knows if something significent changes, i.e. you sell your house (we aren't), you get a 10% salary increase (we wish!!), is if we tell him?

Let's say your salary increased by 3%, do you have to notify the trustee?

[aa06a47]

You won't be able to sell your home while in a Chapter 13 unless you have trustee approval. Through the title search, etc., they will know the home is in a bankrtupcy estate.

If your trustee request tax returns, he will get a pretty good idea of it by the tax return.

[CindyLou]

Sophie,
Sorry to hear that you are having troube. Do you happen to know what aspect of the plan that the trustee is objecting to? Is it in relation to expenses? Income? Repayment? I know it is frustrating to be trucking along without the concreteness of the confirmation. The good news is once the plan is finally confirmed, your pretty much set. My brother just went through the process and he came out with a lot less hair than he started with!

MajorMike, remember.....don't put the cart before the horse. The trustee doesn't have to accept any plan no matter how correctly prepared it may be. It is a legal process. Nothing is for sure and is ultimately up to the bankruptcy court, not the debtor's attorney.

[MajorMike]

Why is it that some trustees accept plans at the 341 and some wait months?

By the way, sorry to the OP for my post. ( and to the moderators )

[lrprn]

Why is it that some trustees accept plans at the 341 and some wait months?

MM, Ch 13s are not ever confirmed at the 341 - only at the confirmation hearing which follows the 341 meeting about 3-6 weeks later.

If the trustee and the filer's Ch 13 lawyer have differences in how the bk law is to be interpreted (and there are a large number of gray areas on the Ch 13 side), then it isn't unusual for confirmation to be delayed for quite some time while they try to work it out. Check my sig - we've been waiting for our Ch 13 plan to be confirmed for the last 15 months while our lawyer and our trustee wrangle through several objections (we're a test case for several gray areas in our district).

By the way, sorry to the OP for my post. ( and to the moderators )

Apology accepted from the mod side. Sophie can decide for herself if she wants to accept your apology.

[sophie]

IRPRN- WOW! 15 months and no confirmation! So this really can keep going on and on! Thanks for sharing that. I guess I should read people's signature.

So I just keep making the payments that my attorney figured out until I get confirmed right?

IRPRN. I don't know if I'm just thick headed or if my brain is clogged with too much info, but could you tell me in black and white, if I get confirmed, I get an approved payment plan, how could my payment later be upped? That's what I'm not grasping. Is it only if the trustee requests my tax returns and sees a dramatic increase? What about if we decide to decrease/cut out say our insurance or any bills we have, to try and save money. Could he see that as extra income? Could he ask for our bank records and see money in a savings (that we would have if we cut out some bills) and want that? Or would that be noted that we have the money in a savings cause we need to cut back more in order to save for an emergency?

And yes, of course, MM, your apology is accepted.

Thanks again everyone for your insight!

[lrprn]

IRPRN- WOW! 15 months and no confirmation!

Our situation is very unusual - just the right combination of incomes to types of debts to be the perfect test case for several gray areas of law on the Ch 13 side. The vast majority of Ch 13 plans are confirmed within six months of filing.

So I just keep making the payments that my attorney figured out until I get confirmed right?

Right.

if I get confirmed, I get an approved payment plan, how could my payment later be upped?

Only if your income increases significantly (typically over 10% at once) or if your expenses decrease significantly will there be any chance of your plan payment going up. And the trustee has to go to court to prove the payment increase is deserved.

The chances of your trustee forcing an increase in your payment after confirmation is very small.

It will help to realize that after confirmation, Ch 13 trustees think in BIG money - thousands of $$$$ - not little money that we are used to dealing with - just tens to hundreds of $.

Adjusting the family budget will have no effect on your current payment. And trustees don't ask for your bank records unless there's some suspicion of fraud. Most do ask for your tax returns every year as a quick check on your income. That's sufficient notice to the trustee of any increases in your income.

Money in your savings account after you file is not a part of your bankruptcy. Our lawyer told us to put as much in our savings account as we wanted and not worry about it.

[MajorMike]

IRPRN,
My attorney told me point blank that 95% percent of his cases get confirmed at the 341. He takes the attorney's payment proposal ( at least my attorney's ) because he has no suspicions that it is inaccurate. I questioned him too on that. I said, I thought you had to wait a certain time period to get confirmed and he said, no, out of all my 13 cases, only one was postponed while the trustee checked into it. All his others were confirmed right at the 341.
Now, I'm very curious.

[MajorMike]

I just found this online but damn, I didn't get the link. I just pasted it.

"If no objections to confirmation are filed at least five (5) business days prior to or at the continued 341 meeting, a confirmation hearing will be held immediately following the continued 341 meeting."