Chapter 13 vs. Divorce Debt

[CindyLou]

I NEVER even addressed whether her debt was dischargeable. The point I was trying to make is that she could not object to the dischargability of ANOTHER creditor's debt based on the fact that she thinks it may have been fruadualent. My other point was I did not feel that BK law is going to help her and that she should refocus on the divorve decree. THAT IS STILL MY OPINION....it may not be right, but an opinion is an opinion.... I have been on this forum a heck of a long time and have given a lot of opinions and advice and hey if you don't like like it tough. Leave it or take it buddy! I think a lot of people will chime in here in my support. I should have written you off the day you called us all cheaters! PEACE OUT.

[Granny]

Ya know, gfgs, sometimes you just have to accept that life isn't fair and find comfort in knowing that he will get what is coming to him, sooner or later.

She may be getting the screws put to her, she may wind up biting the bullet and having to file herself or pay through the nose, she may have her credit ruined...but it could be worse. At least she is rid of him.

If you can't find the legal answers you are looking for, I hope you can find some comfort.

[MajorMike]

After I read how he addressed you, I'd of told him off too!
Don't come here if you don't like what the moderators have to say. It's obvious, they know what they're doing and saying. Go talk to your attorney if you don't like answers here. I think this board is full of great information. I appreciate you all and your advice.

I NEVER even addressed whether her debt was dischargeable. The point I was trying to make is that she could not object to the dischargability of ANOTHER creditor's debt based on the fact that she thinks it may have been fruadualent. My other point was I did not feel that BK law is going to help her and that she should refocus on the divorve decree. THAT IS STILL MY OPINION....it may not be right, but an opinion is an opinion.... I have been on this forum a heck of a long time and have given a lot of opinions and advice and hey if you don't like like it tough. Leave it or take it buddy! I think a lot of people will chime in here in my support. I should have written you off the day you called us all cheaters! PEACE OUT.

[JRTLover]

Unfortunately as a result, not much attention was paid to who was primary on what card etc, and as it now stands she has some debt in which he is primary and he is only an authorized user and he has some were she is primary and he is only an authorized user.

And that fact appears to be the whole problem of the matter.

You've done a lot of research, and I think you know what must be done. She probably needs file Bankruptcy too, and get on with life.

Hey, I got ripped off twice after Hurricane Katrina by contractors who wanted money up front to repair my house, then took off never to be seen again. Close to $10,000. That bothers me, but things have a different perspective after you survive with your life. They'll all get their reward one day.

[gfgettngscrwd]

After I read how he addressed you, I'd of told him off too!
Don't come here if you don't like what the moderators have to say. It's obvious, they know what they're doing and saying. Go talk to your attorney if you don't like answers here. I think this board is full of great information. I appreciate you all and your advice.

I TOTALLY agree!!! You cannot attack this from the bankrutpcy law angle.

3) The new bankruptcy law does not allow someone to discharge debts that were part of a divorce settlement....should have been the first question the lawyer asked her x when he said he was divorced. Therefore, there is no case at all against your girlfriend. All her attorney has to do is produce a copy of the divorce decree. So, the debt he owes on those credit cards (hope they are spelled out in the divorce decree) cannot be discharged, and she should not be responsible for paying them.

aa is right. The bk law is on your gf's side as long as the divorce decree clearly spells out who is reponsible for which debt.

Call me crazy. Call me rude. I posted asking some tough questions to some complicated issues with the new BAPCPA. Everyone in entitled to have their opinion. However, when their opinion is stated as if it were fact, when indeed it is wrong, it’s dangerous. I knew from the onset that divorce debt could be discharged in a chapter 13. It’s a bit frustrating to have people keep posting that it’s not dischargeable, quote old law, and tell me I am making allot out of nothing. Furthermore, it prevents people that might actually know or have been in a similar situation from posting to this thread as it makes it sound like:

GFGSWD, you really needn’t worry as divorce debt is non-dischargeable in chapter 13, so case solved, thread over. As I have shown, this is not the case and divorce debt wrapped as property settlement and payable to a third party (cc companies) is VERY dischargeable. I said as much in my very first post to this board, so I guess them telling me I am wrong is ok but me telling them no, you are wrong is rude?

I understand a little better now that this is a chapter 13 forum for people that have filed chapter 13 or are about too. Kind of a "feel good" forum. Nobody who has filed or is about to file chapter 13 wants to believe that as a result of their actions they can actually be hurting an innocent party, an individual. We want to wrap ourselves in the morality of the precept that everyone deserves a second chance (or third or 4th as some of the posts here I have read suggest). As a third party I asked a simple question, "Do they have that right if it comes at someone else's expense"? Legally, as it now stands the answer is yes. Morally, I myself say no, not if it affects the third party in such a way as it leaves them in a worse situation than the filing party. To this the overwhelming reply is "Well, your gf will just have to file bankruptcy herself"! Perhaps that will be the case in the long run. But not without a fight, because agree or disagree, in this particular case, I believe the ex is morally wrong. And more specifically, I believe the law is as it now stands is wrong. To make matters worse, I am (actually she is) forced to fight this battle from within the frame work of the bankruptcy law as it is now written. I am outraged as I have seen what it has done to her emotionally as well as what it well do to her and us financially. Through no fault of her own, her credit is being systematically destroyed, and we will lose our house along with the 15k in escrow we have towards the purchase of the house and no, bankruptcy will not protect her from losing the house. (It is a lease option deal; it was perfect for us until this crap happened). So, ask yourselves this, if you were in her shoes would you just roll over and play dead, or would you do everything in your power to at best minimize the damages? You cannot even begin to understand the level of frustration we are going through, and if that comes across wrong or in a bad way in my posts I do apologize and I do appreciate the help I have been given so far. But please, don't offer up opinion as fact, in the matter of the divorce debt vs. chapter 13 discharge ability, I know I am right, however, there is much much more I need to learn and was hoping that someone here might have had a similar experience. What you fail to understand that if it was the GF or someone else reading your replies to my problem, they would leave here with the false sense of security thinking that everything was ok. For all you know, there may be several people reading this thread who have not registered in this very same situation. Or even yet, may be in the process of divorce and not realize what steps they need to take to protect themselves from something like this happening. They may have read and beleived that divorce debt is not dischargable and as a result of your incorrect posts are not currently taking the actions they need too to protect themselves. How would that make you feel if you learned you incorrectly lead someone down the wrong path? That is why I word my rebuttals so strongly, If these people do exist they need to know unequivocally you are wrong, or they may find themselves in the same situation as my girlfreind. Especially a forum moderator should be sure of his/her facts. It’s not about me/she "sticking it to the ex"; it’s about us not losing everything as a result of someone else's mistakes. I have read allot about divorce cc debt, co-debtors, etc etc. You see, this particualar piece of advice strikes a nerve with me as it is what we were told two years ago and we accepted at and it is why we are now so vulnerable now to someone else's actions.

I would also like to add that my "to the point" blunt style of posting comes from years of posting on other boards. I am not a rude person, quite the opposite and I apolagize if I come across that way. But it is now page 4 of this thread and I need it to move beyond argueing over whether or not non-support divorce debt is dischargable or not.


For the life of me I cannot find any case law that address’s CC debt in which the non-filing party is not a co-debtor but the primary.

[Granny]

Did your GF or her divorce attorney not ever consider the fact that the ex wouldn't pay for debt that wasn't his? Surely you all realized that. Does she have any recourse against the divorce attorney who put her into this mess. Why in the world would she agree to assigning responsibility for payment over to someone else, when she had so much at risk?

Ex's don't play nice, never have, never will. Even when the divorce is amicable, there is still the potential for something to go wrong. And in this case, it went very wrong.

Why didn't your GF cancel the cards that she was the primary signer if she was not going to be making the payments. Failure to do so left her wide open for him to do exactly what he did, incur more debt in her name.

Something sounds really fishy here.

[rrockinggramma]

To gfgtscrewed: I know what it is to hurt people by filing BK first hand. It is awful and the guilt is overwhelming. My brother and my sisters will probably hate me until the day I die, or they die, whichever comes first. I know that going to my mother's funeral will not be pleasant and that I will have to endure their glares and stares and their silence etc. I know the guilt first hand. Your gf's ex will have to face her at school activities for their child, for graduations, for weddings, for birthdays. It will be hard and hard on you too. Hopefully he feels some guilt and remorse. But you are right, it won't change any of the facts or the actions that took place to bring it all about. I feel awful but have learned that in order to move on, I have to ask for forgiveness, which I have done, and not make any of those mistakes again. I cannot control anyone's actions or feelings now but my own. My siblings will have to deal with their own bitterness in their own good way. However, the most important relationship to me was the one with my mother, who is the one I hurt. She and I are ok, moving on, and we do lots together now. But you are correct in that it is tough to get over being taken advantage of.

I really don't have any additional advise other than what I have already offered. Your gf will probably suck it up and pay off her debt and his debt too and get on with her life, albeit, poorer as a result. But you are a good support and I am sure will be in there helping her out with it all.

I wish you both the best and hope you, too, can face the ex in the future without wanting to choke him. LOLOL

Good luck!

[JRTLover]

Legally, as it now stands the answer is yes. Morally, I myself say no, not if it affects the third party in such a way as it leaves them in a worse situation than the filing party.

Obviously, you're quite educated, and have to realize that
legality and morality are usually at opposition with each other.

Is it legal in this state for my wife to divorce me simply because I cannot have children? Yes, legally. That is a stated reason for "grounds for divorce". But is that moral?

You can go on and on coming up with scenarios that are legal according to law, but probably not moral. Bankruptcy is legal, but is it moral? Well that depends on who is getting the shaft. Credit Card companies can suck it up. Evidenced by them offering credit even after a person files bankruptcy. Banks/Credit Unions less likely. And individuals, usually get screwed because we don't have oodles of capital to cover large debt.

You have a choice to fight and be bitter in the short term, or bite the bullet and get on with life. Your choice. Past mistakes usually haunt us for the remainder of our life. But, when we are all dead and gone is money really going to matter? Will they say in 2040, "I remember that dude........way back in 2007 fought like the dickens over that girls' financial mess..........."

[kiddles]

Please re-read those quoted bits of the BK laws......debts to a spouse cannot be discharged. It says nothing about "debts to Visa that I agreed to pay but now am not paying".

Debt that one party assumes responsibility for in the divorce is NOT debt owed to the ex spouse. It is debt owed to Visa (or MC, Discover, etc.). The only way it becomes debt owed to an (ex) spouse is if he doesn't pay it, and she then does pay it. She can then pursue him for reimbursement for what she had to pay.

[BKOnce]

Calm down guys... all I know is .. Debts always go with Divorces (same letter D).... then followed by letter B... Ah, so many lectures made my eyes hurt...

[JRTLover]

Please re-read those quoted bits of the BK laws......debts to a spouse cannot be discharged. It says nothing about "debts to Visa that I agreed to pay but now am not paying".

Debt that one party assumes responsibility for in the divorce is NOT debt owed to the ex spouse. It is debt owed to Visa (or MC, Discover, etc.). The only way it becomes debt owed to an (ex) spouse is if he doesn't pay it, and she then does pay it. She can then pursue him for reimbursement for what she had to pay.

I think what complicates everything is that she remained a co-debtor on cards even after the divorce. That was not good. Not getting her name removed was bad.

And I am afraid there's going to be no law or magic bullet that gets her out of that mistake.

[SinkingFast]

Almost everyone makes mistakes. However, how many of you when filing bankruptcy left an ex spouse in this position? I am not throwing stones at anyone other that the ex and the screwed up law as it now stands.

Actually,............... My STBX BIL is doing this to my Sister.

Torturing her on a daily basis with phone calls, harrassing notes, visits to her place of work.

And he filed BK just to leave her dangling with a ton of their Son's Student Loan Debt. Dear ole STBX BIL never ponied up to co-sign the paperwork for their Son to go to College. Sis did and she's left holding the bag.

All is fair in love and war. Most especially in Divorce.

Have your Fiance go to http://www.annualcreditreport.com and pull her Credit Reports from all 2 Credit Bureaus. Be sure to print them out.

You're allowed to pull one Credit Report/year from each of the Credit Bureaus for free. Be sure to review them very closely. Creditors will report if your GF is an Authorized User, the Primary, or Joint debtor on each acct.

[lrprn]

Especially a forum moderator should be sure of his/her facts.

Actually the only forum moderator who has posted on this thread is me and I didn't say that divorce debts couldn't be discharged in bk. Just setting the record straight....

Trust me when I say I can appreciate your pain and outrage, gfgs. Many of us here including myself felt just the way you do when we first found ourselves caught in the trap laid by so many in our legal and credit systems.

Over the last two years I finally came to understand three things....that (1) no matter how outraged I was, the bk law was not going to change fast enough to help me and my family out of the mess we were in right now - I was stuck with what I had and had to learn to work within it because I had no choice; (2) being legally right is no longer even remotely related to being morally right in this country, and (3) I had to decide if I was more interested in expending tremendous amounts of my energy being righteous rather than using that energy towards doing what I had to do to address my immediate financial mess effectively within the constraints I was stuck within.

You'll have to make this journey for yourself as well - we all have. We'll be here for moral support and venting if you decide you need it.

We can take direct talk, and we can dish it out too. However, it's a lot easier to help if the person isn't pelting you verbally while asking for help...hint , hint We aren't the enemy....the bk and divorce legal systems are.

[SinkingFast]

Several others in different States, with Divorces going back 20+ years, have had to submit Divorce Decrees as part of their BK paperwork.

I gotta ask the obvious question,............

Have you Consulted with more than one attny regarding this situation???

If you haven't, then you need to.

BK attnys aren't necessarily experienced in Divorce Law any more than they are in Real Estate Law. BK attnys handle Divorce Decrees much like they do a Deed In Lieu of Foreclosure. On a Case by Case Basis. Not every day practice.

If you Consult with other attnys and that's the Consensus Opinion in your area, then it might be safe to assume the information you've been given is Local Custom.

Another place to look is your GF's X's BK Court home web page. See what the Local Rules are. There might be something there regarding Divorce debts.

[aa06a47]

If your gf didn't have her name taken from the cards, and her name was on them in a joint responsiblity, she will probably either have to file bk or pay the bill.