means test:relatives, partners, roommates, etc

[CindyLou]

She would probably not need to know. And I don't ever remember needingto provide a receipt for my rent for any reason. If she doesn't get the mail I woudn't sweat it. But you will have to put her down as your landlord and list her address as your address. They will send her a notice, but then you will get it when you get the mail and then you can just throw in in the trash.

[SinkingFast]

I don't believe our Landlord was notified of our BK Filing. They were listed on Schedule G. Executory Contracts and Unexpired Leases.

And as far as I know, the Landlord received no notice from the Court. They never mentioned it to us. There was no mailing label for our Landlord in our Creditor's Matrix of labels made by the Court of the Clerk.

That may depend on the Rules of the Court you file in.

[CindyLou]

hmmmmm....seems like ours was, but I could be wrong, I'll have to go back and look.

[HenriettaHen]

Still trying to nail this one down ....

from Granny:

Nope, never backed out. Even with his income, we are below the state median income so we passed the means test and didn't have to complete the second part, but even then, being in a community property state, his income remains.

His income is what determines the amount of my monthly payment for my Ch 13. I am a stay at home grandma, raising the grandkids and have a little income from freelance work, but hubby is the main breadwinner and the source of my income.

Looks like

In community property states, spouses equally own all property earned or received during the marriage, splitting 50-50. In bankruptcy, then, all the community property you and your spouse own jointly is part of the bankruptcy estate, regardless whether you join in the filing. Your separate property -- property you owned before the marriage -- is not effected by your spouse's bankruptcy. Property held by your spouse will be used to settle debt first, and then non-exempt community property will be used.

http://bankruptcy-law.freeadvice.com/consumer_bankruptcy/spouse_bankruptcy.htm

So....

Roomie's income : NOT CLAIMED, except for what they actually give you. If they give you rent money or utility money, you will have to claim it as "other income", and then back out the amounts for the expensed items it was contributed for.

Spouse's income : in a non-community property state, spouse's income is included on the Means Test, and then backed out again (minus contributions) in Section IV.

Community Property States : You're in this together! You'll use spouse's income AND assets on your petition.

Is that it?

It is very odd that you would be in Chap 13, Granny, since you passed the Means Test with both incomes included.

Isn't it? (scratches head) What am I missing?

[Granny]

Henrietta,

I applaud you for researching the community property issues. It looks bad to someone who's not living in a community property state, but there are advantages. Our forefathers were actually looking out for the welfare of women when they wrote those laws, especially when it comes to splitting up the community property in the case of divorce.

So back to your question of why am I in a Ch 13 if I pass the means test? Simple answer, I had assets I wanted to keep, namely my house (which I was behind on) and at the time of filing, we owned an 18 wheeler, which was the source of our income. I also was responsible for the business taxes that had not been paid. Those taxes are not dischargeable because they are trust fund taxes. I am paying those back at 0% interest.

Until my confirmation hearing last week, I was paying 0% to unsecured. After we gave up the truck, we filed an amended Sch J to lower our payments to exclude the truck and only pay the taxes, house arrears, attorney fees and the trustee's cut. The trustee countered this and has requested an additional $80.00 per month over what the amended Sch J was showing as available funds. So I will be paying something back to the unsecureds, but it will be minimal. I'll know more about the actual percent when they finally post it all to Pacer.

Do I think this is fair? No, the unsecureds should get exactly what they would get if I filed a Ch 7, which is nada because all my assets are exempt, because I live in Texas. Is it fair to include my hubby's income? Yes, without it, I would lose my house because I don't have sufficient income to make the payments required to keep the house. We decided that I would stay home and not work to raise my grandkids, which we adopted, so he doesn't have a problem with them using his income either.

So now, you know more than you ever wanted to know about community property states huh? By the way, when you marry in a community property state, you marry your spouses debts preexisting debts, but when you divorce, you also divorce those debts, so you can walk away unscathed if you find out that you married a loser....that's pretty cool.

[CityGirl]

Wow Granny, you really have it all together!
Why did you adopt your grandkids? Where are your kids?
I don't have any assets so I don't care which I file..

[Granny]

Wow Granny, you really have it all together!
Why did you adopt your grandkids? Where are your kids?
I don't have any assets so I don't care which I file..

Thanks for that vote of confidence, it helps on days like this when I am down in the dumps.

I had 3 daughters, known to my co-workers as:
#2 The good daughter (she lives with me now after her BF split a few months ago)
#3 The wild child (the mother of the grandkids, she's living on her own, clean and sober for 4 months now)
#1 The dead daughter (she was killed in an auto crash 10 years ago)
That sounds hard and cold, but it was the only way the co-workers could keep them straight as all their names end with an ey sound, as in Courtney)

We adopted the kids to protect them from their mother and respective fathers. I hate to say we kinda tricked my daughter into signing the papers, but it was for the kids protection. They are 4 and 6 but we've had them since they were babies, the youngest straight from the hospital.

They are a true joy and worth every moment of despair the whole bk has brought.

If I had known grandkids were this much fun, I would have had them first.

[rilbrianne]

Good Lord, I have a new question now, after reading this whole post. I filed my papers today, as you all saw on my thread and my husband and our 2 girls, 4 and 7 months, live with my father. We rent from him actually, but in the same house. I didn't add his income (which is extremely minimal anyway). I just put the amount we pay for rent and utilities. I never even added him as a part of the household because technically, he isn't. We have our own bills and income. We have our own family, he doesn't pay anything to "take care of us".

I doubt the trustee will even ask, I figured they would just know we rent, from the paperwork. Why would they ask if we have a roommate or who we rent from?? Is it even worth making an amendment because if I have to add him now, they will want his income and they'll look at his belongings and that is just wrong. He owns the house, lots of electronics, car, etc, etc. I don't think it's even necessary to go there. We rent and that is that. what am I supposed to do??

[Bandit]

Good Lord, I have a new question now, after reading this whole post. I filed my papers today, as you all saw on my thread and my husband and our 2 girls, 4 and 7 months, live with my father. We rent from him actually, but in the same house. I didn't add his income (which is extremely minimal anyway). I just put the amount we pay for rent and utilities.

Well ya know if you have a new question then you are getting smarter. It took me a long time to learn that the more I learn the less I know.

I am asking the same questions on this because it makes no sense. For example, what is the difference if I pay rent to my father in the same house that he owns or I rent from my father in an apartment that he owns? or, I rent just a room with house privileges? It is not like my father is actually giving me money to rent from me. If it were the other way then I could see it as my income.

The only thing I can come up with is, they might see it as you would be paying more if you were in the apartment the relative owns than if you were living with the relative in the house he owns. Or they might look at our rental agreement and see the price then want to know if we have a room mate who helps us pay that agreement & that would bring our total lower than what the agreement says. ? Not sure about all that - just kind of scratching my head right now.

I also agree that is just wrong to drag someone else into it by using their income just because you rent or have a room mate. Does that mean they drag every landlord into every case if he has a mortgage to pay?

I kind of have the same living situation by the way, rilbrianne.

Best wishes & I am sure it will all work out for the best for you.

[rilbrianne]

I posted this same question in a new thread "preference" so hopefully, we'll both get the answers we are looking for. I just hope that I don't go to prison for messing up on my paperwork. I didn't do it intentionally. I just need to know if it's a preference to pay my rent as opposed to other debts and if they will come looking for him to get that money paid to him, back for other creditors. This law is kind of silly. Of course, if you saw CNN today, you'd see that this whole world is getting ridiculous. When the right of a pedophile comes before the safety of a little girl. Ok, I won't get off on that tangent but it's true.

It seems unnecessary to go through all of this to keep your kids off the streets and if you have intentionally put off other creditors to do so. Well, good luck to you too and keep in touch. This is so difficult and I am glad to at least have a place to turn to. Hugs!
Sara

[Mrs. H]

-

Having now seen many, many lawyers -

the one thing that they all agree on is that - yes - they absolutely, positively will use my mother as a factor in our Ch. 13.

All of them, but one, have agreed to make it look like she is a contributor to the house, although - if you read my post - you know that she is not. Each and every lawyer has proposed a fictional dollar amount that she contributes to us each month.

The one that would not use her said that there would be litigation involved and that we would all have to appear in court together if her income wasn't used. He wrote a book and is one of the big shots in our area. I think he's just litigation-happy. We're not using him.

We have been assured that using Ma is the best way to go. So, we're hoping they're right. I guess we'll be finding out soon because we're planning on filing in about a week or so. Yes, we have picked our lawyer. My plea is to just get us through this quickly and "unscathed" - AND - most importantly with a realistic payment for us.

Really need to get this over with. Drained. You know how it is. Will update when I know more.


Be well,

Mrs. H.

[HenriettaHen]

Each and every lawyer has proposed a fictional dollar amount that she contributes to us each month.

And this fictional dollar amount presumably puts you over the edge into Chapter 13, does it not?

Do you want to go into a five year Chap 13 plan based on fictional dollar amounts?

It would be a good idea for you to go to http://www.uscourts.gov/bkforms/bank....html#official
and download Forms B22A and B22C - the means tests for Chap 7 and Chap 13.

Use these as worksheets and do the calculations yourself and READ the forms carefully.

Nowhere on these forms does it say to include "fictional amounts" for imaginary income.

No matter what those NJ lawyers are telling you, it's YOUR butt on the line here. If you go into a Chap 13 plan based on non-existent income, you may fail in your plan and end up going through this all over again.

[Mrs. H]

yes -

HH -

you're right. It was bothering us, too. It really DOES NOT seem fair at all to use Ma's income, but yet NOT to list her for the allowable expenses part. Probably because it isn't fair. So -

Change of plans. Change of lawyers. There wasn't a commitment yet anyway. Good.

So now-

we have decided to let big-shot book writer guy run the numbers for us. He is the only one who said that he wouldn't use Ma. But, he also said that if there were any problems that he would take it to court. He said something about B22C won't lie and that in the worst possible case - Ma could be dragged into court to say that she, in fact, no does not contribute to the house at all. I hate the idea of going to court.

Honestly, from the last conversation with the lawyer that we were going to use - it looks like he just plain doesn't believe us. Matter of fact, having spoken to several lawyers now, we don't think that ANY of them believe us about my mother. We were flat out told to "kick her out" since she doesn't give us any money at all. Neither one of us would do that to her. (We both feel that she could take our situation into consideration a lot better, but, still - she needs a place to live.) I'm telling you - all they would need to do is talk to her ONCE - and then they would get it. Think of an impossible person.

So, book-writer lawyer guy wants $200 to run the numbers. This amount will go into his downpayment if we use him.

That's the story as of now. So, a major change in plans and now we'll probably wait a little longer to file once again. Have only been late about 2 months, so the rush is not immediate as of yet.

Also, in the process of figuring out how to change and/or shuffle our cars right now. Turn the leased SUV into a buy and lose the small car which is a buy? Can we do this now? Will we get the financing? Lose the lease and keep the buy? The lease is the SUV - which makes more sense with winter and for hauling things. The buy is the small car - which makes more sense with gas prices and, well, it is a buy already. We really want the SUV, though at the expense of losing the small car. Decisions...

Just talking out loud. Insights still appreciated as always.

Will keep you posted.

Be well,

Mrs. H.

[CityGirl]

I'm so confused about that whole situation with your mother.

I live with my sister, she owns the house and many times lets me go on paying rent because I was in between jobs and she knew I had to catch up. I have paid her for utilities and rent but I don't know what to do in this situation. I am talking to my atty on Tuesday about it. I'm sure he'll know what to do. He's been in this industry for a long time.
He sounds like he has his head on straight...so we'll see.
I don't want her knowing about my BK. I dont want her involved. If it hurts me, then so be it.

[rilbrianne]

I realize I'm in the ch13 side although I'm filing a ch.7. I'm filing pro se and have searched up and down for an answer to this. I have decided to leave it be. In my case, my father owns the home and my husband and 2 babies and I live here as well. We pay rent as if we are renting the upstairs portion of the home (although we share the living room, kitchen, etc.)

So, we rent from him. He has his own income and expenses and I have mine. So I listed my expenses, my income, my property and assets. I left him out completely and in my paperwork it states that I rent. I have no lease, no contract so I listed nothing on Schedule G. I'm leaving it. That's the truth, we rent month to month and that's that.

If I had added him to the means test, it wouldn't have changed it any.

I don't know, this is complicated and the laws and rules are so general. If you can tell me where to find the "law" about this, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise I'm going to leave it and let this nightmare pass.