means test:relatives, partners, roommates, etc

[lrprn]

I live with my sister. I pay her rent of $500 a month and she pays the mortgage of $1200 and the 1/2 the utilities. What do I do in this instance? I dont want her to know I'm filing, and she makes 30K more a year then me!

First of all, you are the one who is filing, not your sister. Only her regular dollar contributions to the running of the household will be included in your bankruptcy, and even that will be backed out later in the forms.

Can you pull your cashed rent checks to prove you've been paying $500/month rent for the last six months before you file? Do you have an agreement in writing about paying your portion of the rent to your sister?

Since your sister is involved in the case, then she may be notified by letter that you are filing - ask your lawyer about this. Better to let your sister know you are filing yourself beforehand rather than letting her find out by getting a letter.

Hang in there - the days are the darkest right before you file. Keep asking your lawyer questions and keep asking us questions too - that's why we're here.

[HenriettaHen]

Lrprn - "Only her regular dollar contributions to the running of the household will be included in your bankruptcy, and even that will be backed out later in the forms"

Roomies and spouses are treated a little differently here.

Married non-filing spouse's complete income is added in and then backed out of the calculations with the marital adjustment detailed by you above.

Housemate's regular contribution to your household expenses is added in as "other income" and stays there. For instance, your rent is 1000.00, but housemate pays half. It IS backed out by the expense it is contributed for - but it is not backed out by a line item adjustment like a spouse's income.

You would not include Roomie's income, ONLY what you get towards the living arrangements. (Say you do the shopping and Roomie gives you money towards it. Or you pay the electric and Roomie gives you half. It's technically income to you, especially if you deposit it - but you expense it right back out again.)

[HenriettaHen]

I should add that for Other income, it might be advantageous to include an Addendum page to Sched I.

This helps the trustee and the judge to understand things in more detail.

[CityGirl]

But how do I go about this without letting my sister know? I do NOT want her to know. I'd rather suffer through....( I have my reasons )

I do not have checks paid to her. It's in cash. I just give it to her.
Maybe I'll just say that I don't pay rent. That would probably be easier and then I'll just pay more per month to the trustee, I guess.
This chapter 13 thing is freaking me out. My attorney said 99% of his cases are a 7 and most of them thought they'd have to do a 13....I'm hoping he knows what he is doing.
He said if in the rare circumstance I have to do a 13, that I'll only pay 10% of the debt back over 5 years..which is only 6K or $100 a month. I hope he can pull this one off! LOL

[HenriettaHen]

CG - a few things ....

How far along are you in this process? Are creditors contacting you?

Is your sister involved in any way with your financial affairs? (co-signer?)

Do you file income taxes each year?

Here's why I ask - There's always a chance that your sister will find out about this. But if she is not involved in any way, then that's a chance you might take - even though it would be QUITE awkward if she were to find out from somebody besides YOU.

If you owe her money besides rent, then she is a creditor and she would be involved. If she is a co-signer on anything, then she would be involved. If she's involved, then you're going to have to face up to telling her.

That said, if the situation is relatively uncomplicated, perhaps you could ask her for receipts for the rent you have paid, for income tax purposes. If you ask for 2007 receipts from January, that will take you back 7 or 8 months, which should satisfy the trustee that this is a legitimate expense.

You should claim your rent, it's a significant expense. Start writing a check for it from now on, so you have a paper trail. Same goes for utilities. If you can't write a check, and have to pay in cash for some reason, then you need receipts.

Don't weave too tangled a web with your sister.

[Granny]

I receive letters all the time from the attorney and the trustee's office, with their return address right there is big bold letters on the envelope....if you live with your sister, she is bound to find out the truth.

[Granny]

Roomies and spouses are treated a little differently here.

Married non-filing spouse's complete income is added in and then backed out of the calculations with the marital adjustment detailed by you above.

Henrietta Hen,

Treatment of the spouse's income is not always backed out. It depends on the state you are living in when you file. My hubby's income was added in and NEVER backed out. And I was the only one filing.

[HenriettaHen]

I receive letters all the time from the attorney and the trustee's office, with their return address right there is big bold letters on the envelope....

Ouch, I forgot about that one. They want your actual address, so you are going to get mail with your case number on the outside of the envelope, with a return address that reads:

OFFICIAL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT
CONTAINS NOTICE of a PROCEEDING
in the
UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT

Yes, one final insult - your bankruptcy advertised for all to see.

My hubby's income was added in and NEVER backed out.

On your means test, his income wasn't backed out as Marital Adjustment in Part IV Line 17 ?

[Granny]

Nope, never backed out. Even with his income, we are below the state median income so we passed the means test and didn't have to complete the second part, but even then, being in a community property state, his income remains.

His income is what determines the amount of my monthly payment for my Ch 13. I am a stay at home grandma, raising the grandkids and have a little income from freelance work, but hubby is the main breadwinner and the source of my income.

[HenriettaHen]

Yet another wrinkle. Keep 'em coming!

[Bandit]

This is very confusing. Why in the world would you have to list someone elses income that is not a spouse just because you live in the same house?

For example, I have a room mate who is my cousin. He owns the house and I pay rent for a room. Why would I put his income down when I am giving him money from my pocket to rent?
I also pay all the utility bills and have receipts for both the rent & utilities that I have paid for several years.

Then I turn around & add his income to my income that I never see a penny of? That sounds kind of goofy.

Wouldn't that work differently if I OWNED the house & he was giving me money for rent? Then I could see putting my cousins rent that he pays to me as added income.

Something here makes no sense, to me.

[Bandit]

Yet another wrinkle. Keep 'em coming!

LOL!
and another gray hair. Soon they will all be white just from finance juggling and wondering about - what next. I noticed that almost my whole beard turned white after surgery on my face.

[CityGirl]

I'm still up to date with my payments. I'm not late yet at all, but it's getting very difficult.

My sister is not involved at all in my finances. She isn't on any of my credit cards, nor is she a co-signer. We are just roommates.

I've filed all my tax returns, yes.

As far as not including my rent, I'd rather not have to ask her for a receipt. I don't want her involved at all. If my attorney says that has to happen, then I will not file at all.

CG - a few things ....

How far along are you in this process? Are creditors contacting you?

Is your sister involved in any way with your financial affairs? (co-signer?)

Do you file income taxes each year?

Here's why I ask - There's always a chance that your sister will find out about this. But if she is not involved in any way, then that's a chance you might take - even though it would be QUITE awkward if she were to find out from somebody besides YOU.

If you owe her money besides rent, then she is a creditor and she would be involved. If she is a co-signer on anything, then she would be involved. If she's involved, then you're going to have to face up to telling her.

That said, if the situation is relatively uncomplicated, perhaps you could ask her for receipts for the rent you have paid, for income tax purposes. If you ask for 2007 receipts from January, that will take you back 7 or 8 months, which should satisfy the trustee that this is a legitimate expense.

You should claim your rent, it's a significant expense. Start writing a check for it from now on, so you have a paper trail. Same goes for utilities. If you can't write a check, and have to pay in cash for some reason, then you need receipts.

Don't weave too tangled a web with your sister.

[CityGirl]

I receive letters all the time from the attorney and the trustee's office, with their return address right there is big bold letters on the envelope....if you live with your sister, she is bound to find out the truth.

No, she won't. She never ever gets the mail. It goes to a mailbox in which I have the key. I always get the mail because she works from 1-9...and even when I'm on vacation or out of town, she waits til I get back to get the mail.

[Bandit]

You know what, maybe they just want to know about the incomes to make sure that the one person filing does not do any fraud which would turn around at another time and the other person living there who did not file tries to do some kind of fraud?

For example, two people having (sharing) everything- one files this year and the other files two years down the road? I can see how some of this could turn into scams. (?)

When my mom & her husband filed they both filed together & put both incomes down. But, I wonder what that would have been like if only my mom filed and not her husband as far as the paper work? He could have turned around & filed two years down the road on his own. I know they told my mom to retire early & quit her job, then after the BK if she wanted to go back to work then it would be ok.

All this has me to thinking because it is almost like people get drug into things that are (may not) even be filing. Strange.