Our situation - any answers appreciated...

[Mrs. H]

Thanks again for the answers -

I'm beginning to "love" lawyers too now.

I didn't want to write until there was any new info.

It's just getting worse it seems.

The lawyer from Wednesday night came back today with this:

He would NOT use Ma at all. BUT -

He has us paying $500 to $700 a month with his calculations after running the Means Test.

THEN HE SAID -

The expenses on Schedules I & J DON'T MATTER. He said that everything is based on the ORIGINAL Means Test income.

So, based on this guy - we would have negative money to live off of each month.

That's NEGATIVE money for food, gas, prescriptions and forget the cats.

He went on to say that any money that we find from additional employment once the court decides the payment amount would be ours and would not be questioned. So basically work three jobs each just to make this payment.

HE ALSO SAID -

The more debt we have the higher our payments would be. Now, from what I've read - if there is no money left to distribute to the creditors, then that's just too bad for the creditors. He is saying the exact opposite.

AND THEN HE SAID -

If we enter into the Chapter 13 and can't make the payments - then we could go into a Chapter 7.

I DON'T KNOW - BUT THIS SOUNDS LIKE HE IS TRYING TO DOUBLE DIP US FOR MONEY. He would get paid TWO TIMES then, right? Chapter 13 and then for the Chapter 7. I think he is basically trying to SET US UP for FAILURE.

Please help with advice - does it sound like I am right about this?

Oh, another little tidbit...

I'm not sure what bearing this has on anything - but the name of his law office SHARES the name of one of the two bankruptcy judges in our area.

Anyone have any ideas?

I think that I am going to have a stroke. Really not trying to be funny at all here.

I think that I'm going to write another post asking someone if they know of a lawyer in our area of New Jersey who is NOT a COMPLETE NUTJOB.

[Mrs. H]

Really interesting -

So, upon just now researching the Wednesday night lawyer's partner -

I find a profile that say that the partner's wife IS THE JUDGE.

Very, very confused.

Not saying that we will GET her out of the two judges in our area, but this is very interesting to me.

[magyar123]

No need to list your mom's income into the total household figure when you file, since she is not listed as a dependent on your tax return - even if she does contribute by helping you out on some bills.

[HenriettaHen]

I feel for you, Mrs. H. I went to a total of seven free consultations during the year before I filed, and it was extremely frustrating.

The best advice one could give would be to read this forum until you've read back to December 05 or so (since the new laws came into effect), and then TEST your potential attorney with questions you already know the answers to. Too many wrong answers? INTERVIEW OVER.

We're not legally qualified to "give advice". Rather, the beauty of this forum is the sharing of experience, which is (so far) not against the law.

You'll soon develop an excellent BS-O-Meter. Almost everything you could ever want to know is contained on the web, a good deal of it right here in this invaluable forum. Every official form, every instruction for every form, and some great down-loadable books for a reasonable price are all available to you. You, too, can read law!

And you can get a good idea of how things go in general by getting a Pacer account right now and reading up on similar cases in your area. Chapter 13's AND Chapter 7's. Compare and contrast.

Only 8 cents per page. And you won't even get charged until you rack up over $ 10.00 worth of pages in three months. PACER IS YOUR FRIEND.

Knowledge really IS power.

One good thing to do is to download the bankruptcy forms (free) from the UST website, and go over them and over them, making draft copies until you understand EXACTLY what it's all about. You gotta study hard.

With my case, a simple straightforward Chap 7, I eventually skipped the lawyer and did it myself. (and by the way, I got the Magic Form B18 on Pacer last night after a long day - now you go look that form up! )

Get right on top of your bankruptcy and do as much research as you possibly can. If you can stretch things out a little longer and get a very firm handle on your situation, I do believe you might find a way to go with Chap 7.

In any case, an attorney is always best when there is a home to keep.

You don't have any disposable income.

What's the employment situation?

[whatamess]

Mrs H

Did you get my Pm I sent you a few days ago? Pm if you want my attorneys name. I live right in the next town over.
WAM

[SinkingFast]

That's the oldest trick in the BK attny's Handbook, Mrs. H!!

Push the client into a Ch 13, knowing full well they can't make the payments. Then they come back in a year or 2, begging to Convert to Ch 7.

You are so right!! It is double dipping on the fees.

The attny gets paid the remainder of the Ch 13 fee out of your first few months of payments. Then when you Convert, POOF!! Another fee is paid then too.

If you can Convert to Ch 7 down the road, why can't you file Ch 7 now?? I wonder??

[CATCHMEIFYOUCAN]

Chapter 13 CONVERTS to Chapter 7

If we enter into the Chapter 13 and can't make the payments - then we could go into a Chapter 7.
I DON'T KNOW - BUT THIS SOUNDS LIKE HE IS TRYING TO DOUBLE DIP US FOR MONEY. He would get paid TWO TIMES then, right? Chapter 13 and then for the Chapter 7. I think he is basically trying to SET US UP for FAILURE.
Please help with advice - does it sound like I am right about this?

Hmmm, when I filed for Ch13 my lawyer was asking for $3000, However he said $1000 could be owed to me in the plan. So I was to give him only $2000 (which covered the CCCS Class and the Financial Mgmt Class). I could have gone for Ch7, but I was just playing with the cards, until I was ready to pull out the ACE!

I only had unsecured debt, no assets (accept for a brand new car I purchased a month before I filed, I had no choice, but am glad I was able to do it!), of course I included at as one of my debts but kept it out of the Ch13 plan and was paying for it outside the plan. I had tons of cash advances from my credit cards, which was part of the reason I filed for a 13, and the fact I kept 2 full time jobs at the time I filed (which automatically put me over the median for a single person.

My lawyer was very honest with me and told me if I quit one job I could just file for Ch7 and of course it would be cheaper than a 13 and be discharged of all my debt. But I was stubborn because of my cash advances, I didn't want to risk objections. He said if you file for Ch13 THERE ARE NO OBJECTIONS, meaning the creditors could indeed object but the judge will deny them because your ARE PAYING THEM BACK!

Well we went for a Ch13, and to make a long story short, the only objection came from the Trustee about my confirmation plan of only paying $250 a month! (calculating this I was $65,000 in the hole, the creditors would only be getting back 13 CENTS a month dispursed amongst them!). The Trustee wanted what he saw on schedules I and J - $800 a month.

Time to pull the ACE Card ! I was allowed to quit one job and fall below the Median and CONVERT to Chapter 7. I didn't have to pay the lawyer any additional fees! It had only cost $15 to convert. So that was already covered apparently with the money I had already paid him.

So maybe it is different circumstances in different cases and different states the lawyers TRY to double dip???

Just adding my experience, Best of Luck CatchMeIfYouCan

[whatamess]

Catch me,
NJ is just one crooked state it seems. At least our governers are colorful, always in the news for some odd reason or another. Ive been screwed by more than one lawyer in my time. Most people I know have here. It seems to be a hard place to find a decent man/woman. I had a heck of a time finding and attorney, and the phone books list hundreds within the area. Everyone on these boards and others from NJ seem to have problems this way.
WAM

[Mrs. H]

Wam -

just saw this and the other post and PM'd you. I always forget those PMs exist!


To all - thank you for the answers.

I just got back on here and answered a few things and now the laptop wants to be charged. I think my brain needs charging as well.

Will write when more time and energy can be devoted to a proper response...

Mrs. H.