Chapter 13 Discharged ... But It's Still Not Over ...

[dscurlock]

I disagree with you, been there, done that, just waiting on the tshirt!!
I was upside down on my van. Owed $18,471 on it when we filed. Trustee, my lawyer and the finance company decided it was worth$10,575 at the time we filed. So a secured claim was filed for that amount, $10,575. The finance company also filed an unsecured claim for the remainder of the loan, $7,896. Our unsecureds were to be paid 100% as were hers. Therefore, to date we have paid all of the secured portion of the van and $6,681 of the unsecured claim. So I fully believe she paid the entire value of the loan. The only way you will convince me otherwise is if she says they didn't file a claim for the unsecured portion.

.............................

and I just looked it up on KBB. They say it is worth $4400 today

Ive been told my several dealerships that KBB is wrong, and whatever value KBB may hold, then it is actually worth less.

I thought by you filing a chap 13, you would at least get some type of reduction in your debts, but you said you paid
it at 100%?? so why file chap 13 if you end up paying at 100%?

[arkienurse]

Ive been told my several dealerships that KBB is wrong, and whatever value KBB may hold, then it is actually worth less.

I thought by you filing a chap 13, you would at least get some type of reduction in your debts, but you said you paid
it at 100%?? so why file chap 13 if you end up paying at 100%?

Because we never would have gotten it paid off otherwise. All the credit cards had upped to the default maximum on interest even though we had not been late on any of our payments. We managed to pay all of our minimums right up until we filed, but that house of cards was shaking in the breeze. You do know that when you file, the credit cards have to stop charging interest on your debt, right? Imagine your 90 dollar minimum payment jumping the next month to where the 150 you paid them the month before didn't even cover the interest charges. That is where we were at on one of DH's cards.
When we filed, I hadn't gone on a full grocery shoping in months. I would get just what we had to have to get by, and tell myself I would get stocked up the next time. Next time just never seemed to come by the time I got through with the CC's, mortgage, student loan, and car payments. I had already been late paying the van note several times, and it was just a matter of time before I got behind and ended up missing a house payment.
It has been hard, but it was just such a relief to know that everything was being taken care of.

[Boscoe]

bowwow, you must be writing the defense for the credit union.

Read this very slowly and carefully.....

ALL CREDITORS MUST HONOR THE AUTOMATIC STAY IN BK UNTIL OR UNLESS A BK JUDGE RELEASES THIS STAY.

They violated it. Period. The rest is hand wringing that you are doing. My god, you people. Give this lady a break. Obviously there are no promises or guarantees in the law. Her lawyer specifically told her that himself. But read the above sentence. It is more or less said this way in the bk law. Significant sanctions will result.

I think we should all keep this thread positive, at least until we heard what FH has to say after tomorrow's hearing. Ok???

[FeelingHopeless]

I really have to question your decision for a 2004
car at $16,000 , i just could not think about paying
that kind of money for a car that is 3 1/2 years old.
you can get a 2007-2008 minivan for under $15k these days, and
sometimes you can find them on sale for about $12k

I bought my 2007 aveo for $15,000 - today you can find
them around $8,000 but you bought a 2004 for $16,000
I can imagine you have no car value, your are in the hole,
no trade in value, and you would never be able to sell
it for $16,000 - did you make an impulsive decision and
buy one of the first vehicels you ran into?

Gosh ... I'm not sure how to answer this. I'm trying not to take it as an attack ... honestly, I feel so beat down at this point it's hard not to be defensive. I guess there's always someone who has to have that dissenting voice. Having said that ...

No ... I didn't pick the first vehicle I ran into and it's a little insulting that you'd say that. Was it impulsive? Well, considering my vehicle had been reposessed that morning, I obviously didn't have days to browse my choices online. Any decision I made was well thought out ... but, by nature, a little rushed.

Keep in mind that my husband works for the credit union where we got the loan. The vehicle priced out. It was a fair deal ... the only "upside down" part of the purchase was the taxes, license, etc. which was above and beyond the value of the vehicle ... which, by the way, would've been covered by my TRADE IN ... had they not REPOSESSED what COULD'VE BEEN a trade in.

What you can or can't buy a mini-van for is irrelevant. I picked out a vehicle that was reliable ... with a payment that we could afford. Not that it matters ... what you don't understand is that I didn't set out to buy an IDENTICAL mini-van to replace the one they reposessed.

At that point, we'd been in a chapter 13 bankruptcy for nearly five years. We had no intention of taking out a car loan that soon after being discharged ... but ... since we HAD to ... I wasn't about to buy a two or three thousand dollar vehicle (as one person here suggested.) I wanted something nice enough and reliable enough that I could drive it for the next five years. My God ... from your post, you would think I went out and bought a BMW or a Mercedes ...

The bottom line is that I was not then ... nor am I now ... asking or expecting the credit union to pay for my vehicle. If we win, whatever damages the court awards us will go towards paying down my car loan ... however, I'm not expecting to win enough to pay OFF the vehicle I purchased.

To be quite frank, when I first read those posts above ... I thought the same thing as Boscoe ... but I figured I was just being paranoid.

[FeelingHopeless]

I thought by you filing a chap 13, you would at least get some type of reduction in your debts, but you said you paid
it at 100%?? so why file chap 13 if you end up paying at 100%?

Well, the whole thing started because my husband became sick and couldn't work. I suppose the bottom line is that we filed Chapter 13 so we could keep our house. We didn't have a lot of debt ... so we were at 100%. It's five years later ... and the only debt we have is the house and the vehicle we just bought. It really helped us ... although you might not think that from all the trouble we've had recently. All in all though ... it was for the best ...

[Boscoe]

FH - Don't even give these people the satisfaction of responding anymore. They know not of what they speak. Just focus on tomorrow when things will become clearer.......best of luck. The other 99% of us are pulling for you and want to see justice served......and I know we will.

I thought "no personal attacks" was a requirement of this forum. Moderators - please feel free to jump in and give everyone the reminder. It is pretty insulting to FH and others when uninformed people attack without having their facts straight.

[gamom02]

Boscoe well said.
Fh-We will all be thinking about you tomorrow and I'll say a prayer for you.
Unfortunately some folks are so incensitve to other peoples situations, just hope they never have to go through any of the problems and harrassments in their lives.
Hang in there.All will be well.

[$$only4ever]

FH... Will be thinking of you Tuesday. I hope that the Credit Union get theirs....dirtbags!

[chpxiii]

FH, I have updated my alarm on my calendar for the 25th. Good luck! You have a whole slew of us thinking of you!

[FeelingHopeless]

An Answer ...

Oh my gosh ... so much to SHARE guys. Sorry I'm late posting. My uncle is in the hospital and I had to head up there on my way home from the court house. Plus, let me apologize now ... this will probably be a very long post. I'll try not to get wordy though ... so hang in there with me ...

I showed up at the court house 30 minutes early ... because I'm just a nut that way. By the time I parked and went through the security station, I was in the court room 20 minutes before our hearing started. My attorney was already there ... sitting in the "attorney area" with another lawyer who was there for someone else.

There was about ... twelve of us or so all sitting there waiting. And as I'm sitting there, I could hear my attorney chatting with the other attorney. "Did you hear so and so was on vacation ..." "Are you going to ask for a continuance ..." just a bunch of odd things that didn't have to do with me.

Then, he asks the other attorney, "How much in damages would you seek for a client whose Chapter 13 has been discharged ... she's paid off everything ... and then their credit union comes and reposesses the vehicle FROM the Chapter 13?" The other attorney actually set his paperwork down and said ... "WHAT? Are you KIDDING ME?"

So John proceeded to tell a few vague details about the case to this other attorney ... and this guy said, "Man, you could not CONSTRUCT a better case than this!"

My attorney said, "Well, a few years ago, I could've gotten $25,000 from these people ... but ... since the laws have changed ... I'm not sure I could get that much ..." and the other guy said, "Well, you could probably get the cost to replace the vehicle they reposessed ... but on top of that, I'd ask for treble sanctions since they so blatantly violated the bankruptcy stay." After a few moment, the other guy said, "When's that case on the docket today? Cause I wanna stick around to hear that guy's excuse. I GOTTA hear this ..."

Meanwhile ... a few moments pass ... we're about 3 minutes away from the hearing starting ... and the credit union's attorney walks in.

(Now this is not fact ... this next statement is only my opinion: Imagine this ... he's a weasily little guy ... skinny ... shaved head ... very "sleazy" vibe to him.)

This guy walks up to my attorney and really snottily says, "Hey ... I've got an offer for you ... how about five hundred BUCKS?" And, without smiling or laughing, my guy doesn't even look up from his paperwork as he says ... "That's about ninety five hundred too short." Their attorney said, "Well, I didn't think this was such a big DEAL ... haha ... " and my attorney said, "Well, I guess we'll find out how big of a deal it is here shortly, won't we?"

So ... court starts. I'm second on the docket. They call my case. I, like a moron stand up ... I don't need to ... as my attorney and their attorney walk up ... so ... I sit back down.

First, a small snag ... the judge says she didn't get any of the attachment documents that went along with our affidavits. There's about three dozen pieces of paperwork that she was missing. That's kind of a buzz kill ... she was supposed to be able to look at those before we ever got into court. She tells my attorney to tell her what's going on ...

So, John proceeds to fill her in ... going through most of the details. When he's done, the judge looks at the other attorney and says, "So, what's your response to this?" He said, "Well, we FILED a response to their sanction ... we admit it was a mistake ... but the person who repossessed the vehicle wasn't familiar with bankruptcies ... and we think ... you know, she feels bad about it ..." The judge asked, "WHO feels bad about it?" and the attorney said, "Well, our loan officer."

The judge literally raised her eyebrows and said, "She feels BAD about it? Your client has the power to go in the middle of the night and take someone's vehicle. There's some responsibility in that power. I don't believe there's legal precident that says it's okay to break a bankruptcy stay because your employee wasn't trained good enough. I'll have to look it up ... maybe there is ... but I don't believe an "ill-trained employee" is an acceptable defense."

So he says, "Well, there's no damages because they waited days to call us ... if they'd called there would've been no need for them to buy another vehicle." My attorney said, "No, I've got the Notice of Reposession you federal expressed to my clients. You called while they were at work and they called you the next morning." He answered, "I think your clients have some facts wrong ... and ... "

The judge interrupted. "I would like to see all of those attachments, John. I want to see all of your evidence. And ... I think I want to hear testimony." She paused and looked at the other lawyer and said, "At this point, we're not arguing about whether or not there was a wrong committed ... we're arguing about damages."

She asked the CU's attorney how many witnesses they would be bringing and he said, "Um ... uh ... one or two ..." and she asked my attorney how many witnesses he would be bringing and he said, "Three, four ... maybe more. I'll get back to you." She said, "Is it enough to have this happen after (legal term I'm not familiar with) or do we need to have an actual time slot?" and John said, "Oh, I'm going to need at LEAST two hours ... " and she said fine. They talked for about five minutes trying to come to an agreeable date to have this hearing with actual witnesses and such. They agreed on November 7th or 8th ... I can't remember. But it's at 9 a.m. ... I know that much.

At that point, she looked at the other attorney and said, "I would STRONGLY urge you to come together with their attorney and make these people a reasonable offer."

He said, "Your honor, this was just an HONEST mistake ..."

And ... here ... is where it gets good ...

Our judge looked shocked. She said, "Are you trying to tell me that you believe your client has no financial responsibility for their actions? You don't believe you should pay ANY damages?" He stammered for a moment and said, "Well, if there are damages ... they should be very, very minor ..."

She took her glasses off (very Judge Judy of her) and said, "Let me advise you that, from this point on, sir, the clock is ticking. I don't think your client will want to be paying the fees that are going to be incurred if we go to trial with this. Again ... I STRONGLY encourage you to work together to resolve this."

She then made an official statement something like ... "If there hasn't been a resolution in the interim, a hearing is set for November (7th/8th) at which point we will hear testimony about the violation of the bankruptcy stay. You (speaking now to their lawyer) SHOULD work together to resolve this before that date ... if not, I'll need you to file (names some legal documents and such that I didn't catch) ... "

At that point, she bangs the gavel and it's over. Their lawyer immediately turned on his heels and walked out of the court room.

Unfortunately, my lawyer was the attorney for the next case on the docket ... so I waited a moment for them to be done ... after that was finished, I walked up behind him and touched his back. "Will you be needing me anymore?" and he said, "No, no ... we're done. Go on home ... I'll be in contact with you shortly."

And THAT my friends, is where we're at. The bad news? Yes, we're continued until November. The good news ... man, you cannot IMAGINE how pissed off that judge was. I think ... and I'm just guessing here ... I think she was pissed that they hadn't made an offer to resolve it BEFORE the hearing. Although ... I suppose that "five hundred BUCK" remark could be considered an offer.

I'm afraid to let out my breath. I've said all along that my goal was court costs/attorneys fees ... anything else was gravy. I'll be honest ... gosh, a little gravy would be nice.

On a side note ... I can't tell you how relieved I was that everyone there seemed to think it was JUST as big of a deal as we did HERE on this forum. I'm so glad I came here to talk to you guys ... and ... I can't wait to tell you what comes of this.

It's not the "end" that I wanted ... but it's a small peek at what the end might be. I almost cried sitting there at the thought that ... you know ... they WERE wrong. So far so good, my friends ... we're not in the end zone yet. But ... I think we're headed in that direction.

[arlington]

Oh my gosh ... so much to SHARE guys. Sorry I'm late posting. My uncle is in the hospital and I had to head up there on my way home from the court house. Plus, let me apologize now ... this will probably be a very long post. I'll try not to get wordy though ... so hang in there with me ...

I showed up at the court house 30 minutes early ... because I'm just a nut that way. By the time I parked and went through the security station, I was in the court room 20 minutes before our hearing started. My attorney was already there ... sitting in the "attorney area" with another lawyer who was there for someone else.

There was about ... twelve of us or so all sitting there waiting. And as I'm sitting there, I could hear my attorney chatting with the other attorney. "Did you hear so and so was on vacation ..." "Are you going to ask for a continuance ..." just a bunch of odd things that didn't have to do with me.

Then, he asks the other attorney, "How much in damages would you seek for a client whose Chapter 13 has been discharged ... she's paid off everything ... and then their credit union comes and reposesses the vehicle FROM the Chapter 13?" The other attorney actually set his paperwork down and said ... "WHAT? Are you KIDDING ME?"

So John proceeded to tell a few vague details about the case to this other attorney ... and this guy said, "Man, you could not CONSTRUCT a better case than this!"

My attorney said, "Well, a few years ago, I could've gotten $25,000 from these people ... but ... since the laws have changed ... I'm not sure I could get that much ..." and the other guy said, "Well, you could probably get the cost to replace the vehicle they reposessed ... but on top of that, I'd ask for treble sanctions since they so blatantly violated the bankruptcy stay." After a few moment, the other guy said, "When's that case on the docket today? Cause I wanna stick around to hear that guy's excuse. I GOTTA hear this ..."

Meanwhile ... a few moments pass ... we're about 3 minutes away from the hearing starting ... and the credit union's attorney walks in.

(Now this is not fact ... this next statement is only my opinion: Imagine this ... he's a weasily little guy ... skinny ... shaved head ... very "sleazy" vibe to him.)

This guy walks up to my attorney and really snottily says, "Hey ... I've got an offer for you ... how about five hundred BUCKS?" And, without smiling or laughing, my guy doesn't even look up from his paperwork as he says ... "That's about ninety five hundred too short." Their attorney said, "Well, I didn't think this was such a big DEAL ... haha ... " and my attorney said, "Well, I guess we'll find out how big of a deal it is here shortly, won't we?"

So ... court starts. I'm second on the docket. They call my case. I, like a moron stand up ... I don't need to ... as my attorney and their attorney walk up ... so ... I sit back down.

First, a small snag ... the judge says she didn't get any of the attachment documents that went along with our affidavits. There's about three dozen pieces of paperwork that she was missing. That's kind of a buzz kill ... she was supposed to be able to look at those before we ever got into court. She tells my attorney to tell her what's going on ...

So, John proceeds to fill her in ... going through most of the details. When he's done, the judge looks at the other attorney and says, "So, what's your response to this?" He said, "Well, we FILED a response to their sanction ... we admit it was a mistake ... but the person who repossessed the vehicle wasn't familiar with bankruptcies ... and we think ... you know, she feels bad about it ..." The judge asked, "WHO feels bad about it?" and the attorney said, "Well, our loan officer."

The judge literally raised her eyebrows and said, "She feels BAD about it? Your client has the power to go in the middle of the night and take someone's vehicle. There's some responsibility in that power. I don't believe there's legal precident that says it's okay to break a bankruptcy stay because your employee wasn't trained good enough. I'll have to look it up ... maybe there is ... but I don't believe an "ill-trained employee" is an acceptable defense."

So he says, "Well, there's no damages because they waited days to call us ... if they'd called there would've been no need for them to buy another vehicle." My attorney said, "No, I've got the Notice of Reposession you federal expressed to my clients. You called while they were at work and they called you the next morning." He answered, "I think your clients have some facts wrong ... and ... "

The judge interrupted. "I would like to see all of those attachments, John. I want to see all of your evidence. And ... I think I want to hear testimony." She paused and looked at the other lawyer and said, "At this point, we're not arguing about whether or not there was a wrong committed ... we're arguing about damages."

She asked the CU's attorney how many witnesses they would be bringing and he said, "Um ... uh ... one or two ..." and she asked my attorney how many witnesses he would be bringing and he said, "Three, four ... maybe more. I'll get back to you." She said, "Is it enough to have this happen after (legal term I'm not familiar with) or do we need to have an actual time slot?" and John said, "Oh, I'm going to need at LEAST two hours ... " and she said fine. They talked for about five minutes trying to come to an agreeable date to have this hearing with actual witnesses and such. They agreed on November 7th or 8th ... I can't remember. But it's at 9 a.m. ... I know that much.

At that point, she looked at the other attorney and said, "I would STRONGLY urge you to come together with their attorney and make these people a reasonable offer."

He said, "Your honor, this was just an HONEST mistake ..."

And ... here ... is where it gets good ...

Our judge looked shocked. She said, "Are you trying to tell me that you believe your client has no financial responsibility for their actions? You don't believe you should pay ANY damages?" He stammered for a moment and said, "Well, if there are damages ... they should be very, very minor ..."

She took her glasses off (very Judge Judy of her) and said, "Let me advise you that, from this point on, sir, the clock is ticking. I don't think your client will want to be paying the fees that are going to be incurred if we go to trial with this. Again ... I STRONGLY encourage you to work together to resolve this."

She then made an official statement something like ... "If there hasn't been a resolution in the interim, a hearing is set for November (7th/8th) at which point we will hear testimony about the violation of the bankruptcy stay. You (speaking now to their lawyer) SHOULD work together to resolve this before that date ... if not, I'll need you to file (names some legal documents and such that I didn't catch) ... "

At that point, she bangs the gavel and it's over. Their lawyer immediately turned on his heels and walked out of the court room.

Unfortunately, my lawyer was the attorney for the next case on the docket ... so I waited a moment for them to be done ... after that was finished, I walked up behind him and touched his back. "Will you be needing me anymore?" and he said, "No, no ... we're done. Go on home ... I'll be in contact with you shortly."

And THAT my friends, is where we're at. The bad news? Yes, we're continued until November. The good news ... man, you cannot IMAGINE how pissed off that judge was. I think ... and I'm just guessing here ... I think she was pissed that they hadn't made an offer to resolve it BEFORE the hearing. Although ... I suppose that "five hundred BUCK" remark could be considered an offer.

I'm afraid to let out my breath. I've said all along that my goal was court costs/attorneys fees ... anything else was gravy. I'll be honest ... gosh, a little gravy would be nice.

On a side note ... I can't tell you how relieved I was that everyone there seemed to think it was JUST as big of a deal as we did HERE on this forum. I'm so glad I came here to talk to you guys ... and ... I can't wait to tell you what comes of this.

It's not the "end" that I wanted ... but it's a small peek at what the end might be. I almost cried sitting there at the thought that ... you know ... they WERE wrong. So far so good, my friends ... we're not in the end zone yet. But ... I think we're headed in that direction.

Just simply awesome. I have been following your story since the first post. I think the "hard" part is over...and that was having the Judge realize who was in the wrong. Like you said the rest is just gravy!

[chpxiii]

OH MY GOD! FH! I was just thinking about you! (Like I said, I marked it *my* calendar. )

I'm so glad you filled us in. Sounds good. Five hundred bucks, my rear end. That statement is a clear indication that the CU thinks they're going to win and are trying to minimize the situation. More bullying and harassment.

I like that right now they're just talking about damages. It seems that this is in your favor. I'm really hoping you get not just your attorney fees paid, but alteast a new car out of the deal.

Right on! Keep us updated if the CU decides to try and settle. You are such an inspiration of not letting the big guy continue to bully.

[FeelingHopeless]

Exactly, chpxiii ... it told me that their attorney thought they could basically shrug their shoulders and say, "Eh, our bad ..." and be done with it.

Had they called me back on their own within hours and said, "Ooops ... our mistake ..." that would've been one thing. Because I would've had no attorney's fees at that point. Heck, I signed the loan documents at about 1:00 ... but I didn't actually pick up the car or sign THOSE documents until about 5:30. If they'd called ANYTIME during that first day, I could've just called to ask if we could cancel our loan request.

In any case ... I think I'm going to call our phone company to ask if I can get a listing of phone calls coming in during that time period. If it comes down to us having to go to court, I want to prove what time and what day she called me to say "Ooops, sorry." Unfortunately, I called her back from my office extension ... I'm not sure how hard it would be to get that kind of information from my admin tech. But, since she already knows about the bankruptcy, I think I'll ask her tomorrow just to be on the safe side.

Thanks guys ... I'm starting to relax a little ... haha

[Boscoe]

FH - I literally laughed out loud when I read his "$500" offer. My wife said "what is so funny?" so I told her the entire story and she sat there with her mouth open in disbelief.

Like I said, the judge would be pissed. I think $10k is not nearly enough. They had their chance. Your attorney said "I could get $25k before the law changed...", well, for all the law changes in 2005 for bk, the automatic stay was not touched AT ALL.

I say, minimum $25k and it should be more. The other attorney was a joke, and the judge was so floored by his "defense" that she said "I think I want to see testimony". That is judge-speak for "Credit union, grab your ankles".

Hopefully your attorney will see this and go for it. They had plenty of chances and blew them all. Remember the other attorney who said "What,,,,are you kidding me?" I bet at that moment he wishes it was his case.

Take 'em to the cleaners, get your car paid for, the attorney well compensated, the court too. They bit off WAY more than they could chew.

Imagine, a "my employee was poorly trained" defense. Judge was pissed on the outside and laughing on the inside....

I know Nov 7 or 8 seems long away, but it will be WELL worth the wait. Don't settle for less than $25k. I wish it was appropriate for us to ask where this court case will be, because I wanna go!

[FeelingHopeless]

LOL ... I wish it was appropriate to talk about it. I wish I had a whole room full of supporters because the idea of a trial makes me a nervous *wreck*. But, the bottom line is that I have to believe everything will be alright. I didn't lie or exaggerate anything ... so I'm not worried about going on the stand. And really, why would I have to? The reality of the situation is so unbelievable that there's no reason to make stuff up. I mean ... what could I say that would make it worse anyway? "Well, judge ... then when I picked up the plates, they PEED on me ..." LOL

Yes ... November 7th or 8th seems a LONG way away ... especially since I was hoping and praying it'd be over TODAY! haha But that's okay ... in the meantime, I'll come here ... read the forum posts ... and wait for my phone records to arrive.