Ch. 13 Pro Se Question

[TurnThePage]

Quick Question about filling out the schedules. On A/B Property: "Do you own, lease, or have legal or equitable interest in any vehicles, whether they are registered or not?" Let's say I made three $700 car payments to a financed vehicle worth $45k. I'm the registered owner, not the legal owner, I'm not "leasing" the vehicle, and have very little equity in this vehicle. Do I list it here?? Please help! Thanks :-)

[justbroke]

I can't answer that because it's a tough question and it's a legal question. Because you have bare legal title, you may need to list it, but somehow claim and 100% prove that you only have bare legal title. Even though you have bare legal title, you might be able to show that you have no equity, because you are not the true owner. You may want to reach out to your Pro Se clinic, if your bankruptcy court has such a thing.

But, because you said you personally made payments on the vehicle, that could be problematic. I know that when my friend went to get a loan for something, they had to prove that the last 12 payments all came from another person (proof with cancelled checks and/or statements). I'm not saying my friend's issue and yours is the same issue, but proof that you made any single payment or used your credit to obtain the vehicle could be problematic.

That's why I can't answer the question.

[TurnThePage]

Thanks JB. Yeah, it's a tough one. For insurance purposes, I'm the registered but not the "legal owner," as it's the creditor's property. What do you think, Des?

[despritfreya]

Sorry, but there is nothing "tough" about this.

What do you mean by "registered owner, not the legal owner"? Either you are on the title or you are not.

If you are the titled owner, you are the "legal" owner (equitable or otherwise). You list the vehicle. Assuming you took out the loan that is secured by your vehicle, the lender gets listed on Schedule D.

I highly recommend you discuss this with an attorney in your area.

Des.

[TurnThePage]

Hello Des!

Thank you for the quick reply. Yes, I would agree that you are correct, at least for the purposes of Bankruptcy. (On the vehicle registration form, however, at least here in Washington -- we have both Registered and Legal Owner categories. On my '04 Pilot, for instance, I'm both as I own the vehicle free and clear. On the 2021 Nissan Rogue, I am the "registered" owner, but "legal owner" is assigned to Gesa Credit Union.)

I guess it makes sense that I'm the "owner," even with the creditor's lien.

[justbroke]

I guess it makes sense that I'm the "owner," even with the creditor's lien.

Oh, the creditor... a/k/a the lienholder. I find it interesting that Washington does that differently. Here in Florida we have the owner (registered and titled owner) and then the lienholders.

Very interesting how they do that. I learn something new every day.

[despritfreya]

See the link for some info:

https://www.washingtonlawhelp.org/resource/problems-getting-title-to-my-vehicle

If you are paying on the car, the title lists you as the registered owner and the seller (or finance company) as the legal owner until you finish making payments.

This is how your state does this. In mine, the buyer is the titled owner and the title makes reference that ownership is subject to the lien of the lender. The lender keeps physical possession of the title until the lien is paid off.

Your state does it a little differently but I see no “legal” difference as your ownership is subject to a security interest just like my ownership would be. This is similar to a "land contract" for the sale of real estate. Title stays in the seller's name but, as the purchase price is paid, the equity in the property belongs to the buyer. Once the contract is paid in full, the title is transferred.

Best thing for you to do is to discuss this with a local attorney.

Des.

[TurnThePage]

Thanks Des! I appreciate the insight. I'm still searching for a low cost / Pro Bono BK Attorney -- but until then, I'm stuck going at this whole ordeal pro se, albeit armed with a few legal textbooks and general guidelines.

[despritfreya]

I'm still searching for a low cost / Pro Bono BK Attorney --

Here is some potentially useful information if you do not already have it. The first link is from the Bk court in the Western District of Washington. The second is from the Eastern District.

https://www.wawb.uscourts.gov/csLegalServicesAndResources

https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy/filing-without-attorney

Des.

[TurnThePage]

Thanks Des! Very useful information -- also looks like I could submit a "rough draft" of my petition in a sense and have one of the attorneys review it.