Firing my Attorney

[eap82]

Anyone so unhappy with their attorney they fired them? I'm absolutely done with mine. They were great up front and had a great sell until my plan didn't get confirmed because they filled out the paperwork wrong. Many things have happened since then and they are completely unresponsive to any attempt at communication. I'm at my wits end. I had a confirmation hearing yesterday that they and the court said I didn't need to attend, I have no time off work so I didn't go. I've been waiting all day yesterday and today for then to call me and give me an update. In usual fashion, they haven't returned my calls or emails. This is chronic. If I'm not confirmed yet, can I fire them and retain another attorney?

[justbroke]

I wouldn't fire them at this point. All the money you pay in a Chapter 13, is to get you to confirmation. Even though you likely had a "final confirmation hearing" that just means that the Chapter 13 Trustee and your attorney likely agreed to the plan. It could be a month before the court signs the order confirming the plan because the Chapter 13 Trustee, after that meeting, then has to create the proposed order which actually becomes the Order of Confirmation.

Bankruptcy is a slow process. A Chapter 13 is an excruciatingly slow process.

I can tell you that most Chapter 13s aren't immediately confirmed and there are nearly always (95%+ of the time), differences between what the Chapter 13 Trustee wants to see and what your plan says. It's just the nature of the process. In Florida, bankruptcies are done under what they call a no-look model. That means the attorneys get a fixed amount (usually $4,500 for a Chapter 13, plus an additional monitoring fee) for a case. So since that is limited to about 18 hours of work (at $250/hour) to get you through confirmation you won't get responses too quickly because they must balance that with all the other clients. This is especially true if you went to a so-called "bankruptcy mill" (a high-volume practice).

My plan took 6.5 months before I was "confirmed" at a hearing... but that means nothing. Until the order confirming the plan is signed by the court, you are not confirmed. My Chapter 13 Trustee's office took about a month to draft my proposed order confirming plan, and it was signed by the court another 2 weeks alter. That was a total of 8 months from filing to confirmation. That is actually about the lower end of the 8-12 month average for confirmation.

I wish that all attorneys could call people right back, but it's just not possible or necessary. In a Chapter 13 you're told, right after the 341 Meeting, to just keep your head down and keep making your payments. You hired the attorney to worry about time and attending hearings, dealing with objections to confirmation, dealing with creditors, and generally getting you to confirmation. After confirmation, you'll hear a LOT LESS from your attorney because that time isn't generally covered, although they are your attorney of record.

I understand your concern and hope that maybe they let you know in the next week if they are just awaiting the order confirming the plan -- which can take one or two months to actually confirm.

You asked can you fire them and retain another? This also begs the question why would you?

Confirmation can take 6, 8, 12 and even 24 months. Each case is unique and the Chapter 13 Trustee is the gatekeeper of sorts. For a Chapter 13, I don't know at which point someone would fire their attorney. If you're at final confirmation, there's usually no reason to fire them. If a confirmation takes a long time, it's in the nature of Chapter 13 bankruptcies in general.

If you have other things like one or more amendments to your plan, lien stripping, mortgage modification, fighting a creditor or two... that will certainly extend the timeline for confirmation. Each time you amend before confirmation, that should force the confirmation to be continued because you likely haven't given time for all the creditors to review the amendment. Florida has a nice confirmation process by design. It is intended to cure all issues that could have been resolved at the time of confirmation. This is why Florida Chapter 13s take at least 6 months to confirm.

(Florida issues a "preliminary confirmation hearing" about 60 days after the 341 Meeting in order to abide by the bankruptcy code. But Florida bankruptcy courts nearly always -- 99.99% of the time -- just continue that preliminary confirmation hearing another 60-90 days into the future to deal with the claims. This is by design.)

[eap82]

Thanks Justbroke, I was hoping you would respond because you are familiar with my area (I believe you said middle district Florida, that is where I am) and are so on top of things. I completely understand it taking A long time. My attorney initially counseled me on exactly what you wrote about the prelim hearing.

There has been an amendment as I lost income and monthly expenses changed significantly, that alone added 3 months to the process. Ultimately the length of time is ok as it’s time served, I did ask that question here and was reassured. I’m at exactly one year now, hoping you are right and the delay in pacer being updated from yesterday was that my plan was confirmed and now will take a bit to get filed. I’m glad you mentioned that as now it gives me hope that maybe I did get a confirmation, my attorney is of course unavailable to give me that valuable piece of info. The previous hearings when they were continued I noticed pacer was updated the next day with a new hearing date and time.

What pisses me off is getting to a hearing and being told my attorney filled out my paperwork wrong twice now. When I realized they filed it wrong the first time I called for weeks before the confirmation hearing for them to only tell me I was incorrect, then we get there and it turns out I was right. I was telling them all along how to fix it but they wouldn’t listen. No one returns calls and they drop the ball. That is why I’m considering terminating our relationship. I would feel a lot different about them if they would communicate with me and give me even half of the info that this forum has. I’m so thankful for you and this community for sharing everyone’s experience, it definitely has talked me off the ledge a few times.

If I got a confirmation yesterday I absolutely plan to just keep on plugging away and not make any waves. The number is workable and I will just suck it up with my attorney. I still hate the lack of communication but as I understand it once you are confirmed it’s best to just not poke the trustee beast so I’ll be keeping quiet.

[justbroke]

I hate the lack of communication as well. Sometimes you get a really great office that has really great paralegals and law clerks that will answer the questions for the client debtor. My divorce attorney was also a bankruptcy attorney and I didn't always hear from her, but her paralegal/clerk would get back to me within a couple of days. Now mind you, they billed me in 15-minute intervals so every email and call I paid $150-250/hr (pro-rated based on whether it was the paralegal/clerk or the attorney). So I didn't ask too many questions, to save money.

[eap82]

Well, my plan was not confirmed. It took a few days but the order to continue to February was entered. It took my attorney 5 days to notify me, I knew before that of course because of Pacer. Still not sure what to do, they want us to rework the numbers again. I'm so frustrated.

[justbroke]

Let me tell you this. I have seen plans that took 1.5 years to be confirmed. There is something that the Chapter 13 Trustee, and/or the creditors, wants changed. I wouldn't say that it is rare to take more than 12 months to confirm a Chapter 13. Generally, if you have other issues with creditors (stripping, objections, etc), the length of time to confirm will drag out. It is not unusual for the confirmation hearings to be continued multiple times. With the holidays upon us, a continuance to February isn't unusual.

Let me say this also. So long as you're paying and your payments don't substantially change, confirmation isn't a big deal! You have the protection of the automatic stay, creditors can't bother you, and the Chapter 13 Trustee and your attorney continue to work on the agreement. Think of the plan as a contract or agreement and all parties work to diligently come to some agreement... which would be your confirmed plan.

Did your attorney tell you what the material issue is with the plan? I think the Middle District uses a model plan, so it could be something as simple as an interest rate being worked out with a creditor.

[eap82]

They want to show steady income as I started a new job over the summer. So they want another 3 months of pay statements. They are also again questioning my out of pocket medical expenses despite providing receipts in the past. Nothing I can do but comply and chug along I guess.

[justbroke]

That makes 100% sense. As you may be already aware, a Chapter 13 requires "regular income" or it makes it extremely difficult to confirm a plan which promises to surrender income for purposes of the plan. The job of the Chapter 13 Trustee is to make sure that the debtor, in a less than 100% plan, contributes all disposable income to the plan. This means that expenses will be scrutinized.

It's unfortunate that you have these questions, but I can see why your confirmation is being delayed. As I stated, it's not a bad thing in the grand scheme of things. You are currently protected from creditors and when your plan is confirmed, you just continue doing what you're doing.

[Zombie13]

Our initial bid for the plan was rejected as well. On the 2nd go, we provided additional evidence about our medical claims... a lot of additional evidence, since had that time to get it together. Yes, the trustee 'balked' at our medical expenses. We provided photos (dental work - check out that grill!) , letters from doctors, etc.
They say, 60 payments. So, while the attorney and trustee are 'working it out', you can continue making the current payment amount.
When the trustee wanted to raise the payment, that, too, took a month or so as I recall. So yes, it takes time, and it's beyond our control. I reasoned, well, that's what we pay the attorney for - to deal with the court and trustee. Our job is to make the payment each month.
You'll get it done!

[eap82]

That makes 100% sense. As you may be already aware, a Chapter 13 requires "regular income" or it makes it extremely difficult to confirm a plan which promises to surrender income for purposes of the plan. The job of the Chapter 13 Trustee is to make sure that the debtor, in a less than 100% plan, contributes all disposable income to the plan. This means that expenses will be scrutinized.

It's unfortunate that you have these questions, but I can see why your confirmation is being delayed. As I stated, it's not a bad thing in the grand scheme of things. You are currently protected from creditors and when your plan is confirmed, you just continue doing what you're doing.

I absolutely get that. I would have thought that 3 months of income in a job in the exact same field would have been enough. They want another 3. The thing is that we all are human, we get sick etc. I get that I have to have a plan that gives all my disposable income, I can't help it my medication costs changed month to month. That too had receipts to back it up and there is nothing to say it won't change again. It seems unnecessary to me to haggle over low fluctuations in medical expenses when it is most likely going to fluctuate again in the future. I have medical issues that aren't going to go away and have all the proof they could want. Just settle on something and be done already. I said it before as I like the saying, it's time served. I'm just chipping away at that 60 payments. My fear is after all this work and time that my plan won't get confirmed, will get dismissed and then I'm even deeper in the hole with late fees etc. That would be horrible.

[justbroke]

It seems unnecessary to me to haggle over low fluctuations in medical expenses when it is most likely going to fluctuate again in the future. I have medical issues that aren't going to go away and have all the proof they could want.

Every Chapter 13 debtor agrees with you on this. A Chapter 13, while technically flexible, doesn't bend easily for any change in expense. In a way it's punitive that you can't flex the payments easily. The issue is that it costs so much in time and paperwork to change the payments.

For example, to modify a "confirmed" plan requires a Motion to Modify, new Schedule I/J and maybe even a Means test, service of that new paperwork on all creditors, notice to the Trustee, and then a hearing. Before the hearing, the Trustee goes through everything, asks for more paperwork, and it's like a mini-confirmation. This is why many Chapter 13 debtors just work through issues and don't go through the plan modification process. Despite this, I highly recommend that after a plan is confirmed, any income or financial issues should be immediately communicated to the attorney. There are some things that can temporarily be put in place to deal with emergencies and unexpected expense. If a Chapter 13 debtor waits too long, they usually imperil their Chapter 13.

[Barbisi]

I think punitive is an apt description for the overall consequences of finding yourself in "this pay-to-play" predicament - it is a five-year sentence that leaves you literally starting over from scratch, and while that is preferable for some, others would rather not have experienced the "magic" of BK13 in the first place. It is a major disruption in any one's life, and no one should sugarcoat that.
I too had massive medical bills, arising from blood tests, procedures, biopsies, etc., as we neared confirmation and offered provider testimonies as to why I was entitled to whatever treatment the doctor advocated, the many receipts, the diagnoses, ultrasounds, X-rays and MRIs, etc. to support the claims we were making. It was incredibly stressful and ultimately, we prevailed because we could show how serious these conditions are if left untreated. Also, Colorado health care costs are among the highest in the nation, and that could be documented as well.
I wish you well, eap82, as you embark on this less than thrilling journey, and hope you are able to receive all the medical care you need and deserve.
Good luck always!

[flashoflight]

Maybe your attorney could have predicted some of this by presumably having worked with this trustee on other cases for the past few years and preemptively noted the problems in your case. But all of this is mostly routine. In my district, the confirmation hearing has a default date a year away and that's pushed forward when we get a deal done. In my case, the deal was done in month 3 and the confirmation was in month 6. After confirmation, you don't want to poke the bear. Make your payments. Turn in your tax return with modest increases in wages. And don't modify your plan. Just gut it through unless there is a major change.

[eap82]

Thanks for all your replies, I do appreciate all you have said. So I finally yesterday, after 11 days, got an answer from the paralegal about what the issue with the Dec 6th hearing was and why it was continued. The trustee wants more. So off we go again with this negotiation. Just counting down the days until this is all over, hopefully with a confirmed case and not a dismissal. I’m doing so well with my budgeting and trying to stay on track, lessons learned and tools to have for when this is all over.

edited to add she emailed me 5 days after to tell me it was continued and they want more, took her 11 days to call me back to explain exactly what numbers they were unhappy about and what to do with my stimulus check. My trustee wanted it with my tax refund but I had receipts on why I needed the stimulus check and the judge ruled in my favor. I still had that question pending and she didn’t address that in her first email.