Where to find Plan Base amount?

[brokenurse]

Hi all,
I just found this forum yesterday and I could have used it about 4 years ago. We're 16 months out from completing our chap 13 and as you can imagine I am getting antsy. I am trying to see what the dollar amount is that we have left to pay and if it's worth sending extra to finish early. We are at 100% repayment and have been since May 1, 2020. Prior to that, we have had 5 other plan modifications (increases, our trustee hates us). On NDC, my plan base says $0.00. I went through all our old documents from when we filed, but can't really see one, definitive total, so I went back to NDC, went through each claim, documented the "principal owed" and added it all up, but I'm sure there are hidden fees I'm not seeing. According to my attorney, we will be 100% debt free (student loans included) when we complete our last payment, but I don't know what figure she is using to make that statement.

We have a very mediocre relationship with our attorney, otherwise I'd be asking her this. The less I have to deal with her the better.

[justbroke]

Welcome to BKForum.

Usually you can contact the Chapter 13 Trustee's office and ask for a payoff amount. They will perform the calculation. You should also be able to get, from them, your actual plan base. The Trustee's office may not want to talk to you since you are represented. Your attorney can request this payoff amount as well.

The best and only way to definitively know your balance (and Plan Base) is through the Chapter 13 Trustee. The NDC is useless, really, when it comes to the Plan Base. The NDC is great, however, for seeing which checks were sent to which creditors.

So, you could try contacting the Chapter 13 Trustee's accounting department and see if they'll speak with you. They may refer you back to your attorney, but at least you tried!

[Barbisi]

This is a very good question!
When the trustee last raised our payment in Sept.2020, after the negotiations ended, his office declared they would be "satisfied" with the new agreed upon increased amount- is that considered the new Plan Base or after making the final 60th payment, could we find ourselves thousands of dollars short and be automatically denied a discharge, jb? (My husband added up the payments to come,and it appeared to be the same amount listed as our payment total in the Modification Notification we received after the increase was implemented. )

[justbroke]

Usually, the last modified plan (or the confirmed plan, whichever is later) should have the total amounts required to be paid. That is the plan base amount.

A debtor could be required to pay more than the "current" plan base amount. An example of when a debtor could pay more than the plan base is when tax refunds require surrender to the Chapter 13 Trustee. When tax refunds increase the amount of the plan base, the Chapter 13 Trustee will increase the plan base amount. The issue is that this is not automatically (or always) reflected in the plan base amount displayed on the National Data Center's (NDC's) website.

[shipo]

As usual justbroke nailed it.

I had to surrender the bulk of a large tax return during my third or 4th year and as far as I know, my base plan never changed.

[Barbisi]

Thanks jb!
But you didn't answer how would we know?
Should we be concerned if we make the final payment and never hear anything from the trustee's office or lawyer? Would we get a dismissal notice or demand for X amount of $$ to receive a discharge? We ,like brokennurse, don't exactly have the warmest/fuzziest relationship with our attorney, so maybe we wouldn't get a notice and be forced into a new BK13 plan?
Thank you for replying -I am worried the trustee will tack on some charges that we can't pay and we will not be able to regain our freedom, in spite of paying as much as we could reasonably , with out starving ourselves and our pets, going without medical care for us and our pets,lack of heating and cooling in this brutal steppe climate, doing with out a safe working vehicle, etc.

[brokenurse]

I don't really have any of those concerns nor am I even in a position to pay a lump sum right now to be done with our plan, so asking my attorney would just get the wheels in her head turning. I'm just curious of the number because my attorney has given us conflicting information throughout this whole process and once stated "you have an exact dollar amount to repay." Great! WHAT IS IT?! Regardless of if it's even doable for us to cut a few months short, I do not expect a new, surprise bk plan to surface or any surprise charges. Worst case scenario is that our student loans aren't actually paid off.

[justbroke]

But you didn't answer how would we know?

I did. Only the Chapter 13 Trustee knows the actual and very specific amount. The Chapter 13 Trustee's office usually includes an accounting department and they keep detailed books. Chapter 13 debtors can ask their attorney to check on the amount that is showing on the Chapter 13 Trustee's system. I would not use the NDC as a guideline unless you have already verified the plan base amount with the Trustee.

In the end, nothing (usually) trumps the Chapter 13 Trustee's accounting.

[Barbisi]

Thank you again jb!
So even though we are paying a certain amount until Feb. 2022, it sounds like the trustee can, with out much explanation , say in March 2022, "oh, by the way you are not getting a discharge unless you pay $$$$$." So paying 60 months at the agreed upon amount is not a guarantee of a discharge ,right?
We have been able to keep our tax refunds (so far) because as I understand, in the original confirmation, the tax refunds are not mentioned as a necessary repayment. And our trustee checks our tax returns and my husband's most recent pay stub every July/August to decide if our current income warrants a plan payment increase. So far he has increased the payment once, but will likely do so again if there is room to do so.
Should we be providing additional info now to the attorney to avoid a dismissal next year?

[justbroke]

So even though we are paying a certain amount until Feb. 2022, it sounds like the trustee can, with out much explanation , say in March 2022, "oh, by the way you are not getting a discharge unless you pay $$$$$." So paying 60 months at the agreed upon amount is not a guarantee of a discharge ,right?

Unfortunately... it happens. It doesn't happen that often and is extremely rare. There's one member here who recently just had the Trustee, weeks before the last payment, declare that the plan was then infeasible. That's a heart-breaker because someone, somewhere, told the debtor to pay one amount.

Again, that's extremely rare.

The key is that the confirmed plan or the last modified plan is most controlling. There are some issues, sometimes, with adjustable rate mortgages, but confirmed and modified plans are controlling. If your attorney misses something and doesn't ell you that the amount to pay is $100 more a month, it can be disappointing when the discharge comes! The Trustee's accounting department runs the accounting and you're $6,000 short ($100/month for 5 years).

Depressing.

I would hope that the Trustee's annual accounting report is dispositive. But who really reads those? I just glanced at mine and then shredded it promptly.

[Barbisi]

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait to find out if our five year nightmare ends .........or just starts anew!
Yes, that is depressing, and I have read every one of that unlucky debtor's posts - I have to hope and pray that we will not end up the same, but only Feb . 2022 will reveal our fate - BK13 discharge, or dismissal and another BK13 five year renewal!

[shipo]

I predict y'all will come out of it next February with a clean financial bill of health so you can get on with your lives.

[justbroke]

Me too! I suspect that your Trustee is so on top of your income, that the probability of them missing something is extremely low.

[Barbisi]

Thanks guys -you two, shipo and jb seem to know all the angles!
I hope you're right about the trustee -yes, he does monitor our income pretty closely.

[Zombie13]

Me too! I suspect that your Trustee is so on top of your income, that the probabily of them missing something is extremely low.

Yeah no kidding. Like a fly on a cow drop on a hot west Texas day! If you're in or from Texas, you know what I'm talkin about!

RE: the quote: that is another reason why I was asking in another thread, about how much access to our information the trustee has.
I suppose it's more common sense really: observe the patterns over time by reviewing tax returns.

Our latest court order has 4 items. Item d is: "Increase Plan Base by $#### to $##,####
I calculated all past and future payments, and they total up to item d (plan base).
Meaning, when we make payment no. suxty I mean sixty, we will have paid the plan base total.

So, for @brokenurse: we know where you're comin from. If you get paper and email notifications from your attorney about these modification letters, do a search for your attorney's name in your email; you may find the info in there.