Use 401K funds to replace a furnace?

[Zombie13]

Hi folks.

<Edit>: funds are automatically deducted from weekly paycheck if we do this. </End Edit>

If I transfer funds from the 401K to replace the furnace, it is most likely I will get the funds before we get a response from the trustee if we were ask for permission.

Long story short we think, the furnace is/has failed. For tonight, we have it off completely, and will attempt a restart in the morning. This approach has worked before. It worked til this AM, then, we hear the air try to push through the two 'bladder things' (sounds like a big balloon when you let the air out... ok, like a really long duration burp. Then it stops. Yes, that kinda sound is a 'bad sign' for a furnace. yes, we already know that mr. tech, thank you...

The furnace is circa 1991 I believe, Lennox.

Question for the DIY folks: is it possible to find parts for this furnace? Yeah it's 30 years old. It's preferable to fix if possible, but we have had techs out here twice over the past few years, never found any problems. In both cases it started working again.

Someone (here maybe?) mentioned they could offer assistance, never heard back I don't think. But maybe the air bladder things need cleaning/replacing.

I am not too keen on working on the furnace myself... I have done some electrical work around the house, and it was shocking. Ok, not really, more like a buzz.

Question: do we need permission from the trustee? It does not make sense to do so; if I know the cost (for example, $5500 - $6500), get it done, and scan/email the receipt to the attorney showing the expense; and - return any unused funds back to the 401K to prove, we weren't using it for 'fun' (LOL yeah right; what does that mean? We no longer know, though we've heard of it). It will most likely take longer to get permission granted from the trustee, than to get the funds, and get the furnace installed. Edited. Sarcasm removed for the most part... now where's my filter... I may just dismantle this furnace one handful of scrap metal at a time... thinkin Jack Nicholson in 'The Shining' here... yes, I have temporarily lost my usual sunny disposition.

Please advise, and thank you folks.

[shipo]

Hmmm, not knowing what kind of furnace you have, but the fact is, Lenox is a good brand and 1991, while certainly not as efficient as modern units, is not that old. My gut tells me it is fixable; you just need to find a competent technician to give it a good going over.

[justbroke]

For what it's worth some Chapter 13 debtors have sought forgiveness over asking for permission. (justbroke makes whistling sounds and peers off into the distance, avoiding eye contact.) I have had emergencies and spent a tax refund and even had to borrow from the 401(k).

When it is a true emergency, permission is nearly always sought after the fact. Another unknown fact is that a bonafide emergency is a reason to incur debt in order to meet the needs of the emergency. I would think that anything that is life/death or deals with the health and safety of the family could be seen as an emergency. There's a difference, however, between needing to replace an A/C unit that is failing, than the A/C actually failing in the middle of the summer in Death Valley (California).

A failing heating system in the middle of the winter in Colorado could be such an emergency if it has actually failed and is beyond repair. Your attorney should be able to articulate whether a bonafide emergency would allow you to take a loan from your 401(k). Just remember, it still has to be approved after-the-fact. You just ask for permission after you incur the expense. I had to do something similar when my sewer main broke. I couldn't just wait for a hearing in 30 days... it was backing up into the house!

But, here's my bottom line. Barbisi doesn't like that house and I'd hate to see you put in a bunch of money if you're going to leave it soon. But, and there's always a but, you may need a working furnace in order to sell a Colorado home or at least get the value that you're expecting upon sale.

Sending warm thoughts to you and the missus.

[Barbisi]

Thank you, jb for seeing the near dire situation we're in and sending warm wishes our way -we really do appreciate the kind sentiments. And yes I've grown to hate the house along with nearly everything in Colorado (the mountains, the snow,the sun and heat, marijuana, craft breweries, dog parks (but not dogs (I'm an animal lover!)),stagnant minds,etc., but I do recognize the importance of life -saving home systems (like furnaces) and agree to fix just enough to survive this winter and next to exit BK13 and successfully sell this house before relocating to a milder, healthier climate!
Tonight there is already more than four inches of snow on the ground and a divine dip down to 16 to come , however we are still reasonably warm with only the space heater. The turned off thermostat unit currently shows 68 degrees but before morning it will likely be 40 or less in the house. To marrow the high may be around 30 or less, then it will be 50 again in a few more days. (Between yesterday and early this morning it was nearly 60.) Colorado nights are frigid (usually below 20) until late April or sometimes in early May , then three months of 90+to over 100 with lovely wildfires to augment our lungs and promote healthy breathing. Paradise huh? (My sarcasm is showing ,so please do not be offended by offhanded remarks, I certainly mean no harm to any one - I'm just burnt out ,literally !)
The point is, we can't live here 12 + months with out a working furnace - the pipes could and probably will freeze and burst over time, rendering this house unlivable with cold water flooding the basement. So no matter how much I hate to Clap For Colorado (aka Murphy strikes again), we have to probably replace the furnace this year and the trustee just can't prevent it! We will use what ever savings we have because I am not willing to die of hypothermia or pneumonia just to give the creditors more money, would you? LOL (Of course ,you wouldn't, that's simply rhetorical, but that's the point -we will need a working furnace to survive.)
Shipo, thanks for the vote of confidence on how everlasting Lennox furnaces are, but we were told parts for this model are hard to come by if they still exist at all. So I'm not sure we will be able to fix it no matter how hard we try. What would you recommend if no parts are available?

[Zombie13]

Thanks shipo and JB.
And, this is what really annoys me/us. I know it's a pay to play system, but we feel we are living our life under someone else's boot. Some person who we don't even know, has to grant permission for an expense like this. On a personal level, it's annoying. On a business level, I understand.
The idea for this would be to only borrow a portion of the full furnace cost. We have some funds available already. If it takes say, 15 days for electronic funds of the transfer it's kinda almost pointless heh. We can try to find a local technician that is not affiliated with a "Sell Furnaces Don't Fix Em" company. As Shipo said, we will try to get it fixed vs. replaced. Anyway... thanks!

[justbroke]

We can try to find a local technician that is not affiliated with a "Sell Furnaces Don't Fix Em" company.

That company seems to operate everywhere. I met them in Florida. Wanted me to replace my 5-year old Trane A/C units with their new, more efficient, Goodman units. I declined and politely asked that they just replace the relay.

[Barbisi]

Update : A tech for Lennox is coming out at 11am today.There is a $99 charge, but that is far cheaper than 4K or more to replace it.
Not sure if they can fix it, but in a few more weeks (if we can hold out) we might have enough to pay cash for the cheapest model.
Not what we want, but that may be our only solution.

[Zombie13]

That company seems to operate everywhere. I met them in Florida. Wanted me to replace my 5-year old Trane A/C units with their new, more efficient, Goodman units. I declined and politely asked that they just replace the relay.

LOL that's funny JB.

In other news: it started running again. Which is the same thing that happened before: leave it off for many hours, then turn it on in the morning, and eventually it works. Sure just wait awhile, the problem will 'just magically go away'. <Wrong Answer.>. We will still have the tech come to do what they need to do. When other techs have come they'd say, 'I've never seen this before'... and, 'oh we can't get parts for that'. So, great... thanks for the help. Maybe I can observe and learn what they do; always good to learn something new, even if I'll never work on the furnace. My thought: tell me the parts you need, and I will go on ebay if I have to, to get it. Then get someone else to put it in.

Sounds like something is 'clogged' or a valve is not working correctly. I dunno. So tired of this trauma! I do see a pattern though: Temps go to zero degrees for several days. Furnace works. Then it warms up. Furnace works. Then it gets cold again, below 20 degrees. Furnace stops working for a day or so. Temps warm up to around freezing. Then furnace works again after repeated restart attempts. This has happened the previous two years as well. Same/similar weather and furnace patterns. So perhaps that specific sequence of events causes something to get stuck.
observe from left to right, the pattern below. There is a 35 to 50 degree fluctuation from severe temp, to 50/70 degrees.

normal temps (ok) ==> severe drop (ok) ==> warm to 70; big jump (ok) ==> normal temps (ok) ==> severe drop (fail)

Fancy ASCII diagram:

------______+++++-----_____

Another description (use your arm to point to the described clock time):

Normal temps: dial is at 3 PM.
Severe cold: dial goes to 6 PM.
Normal temps: dial goes to 12 noon
normal temps: dial goes to 3 PM
severe cold: dial cannot move to 6 PM; it's stuck. Fail.

[justbroke]

Zombie13 is flexing those engineering skills. LOL. You could easily articulate this to the repair person but, as you write, the problem is intermittent and the tech probably -- as you wrote -- "never seen this before."