About to go boldly with advances <12 mos old.

[keptdigging]

I learned here that the standard rule is to let balance transfers and advances "age" to be at least 12 months old before filing in order to stay off of creditors' radar and not get hit with APs for denial of discharge.

But I'm already getting sued and have considered all the possibilities and decided I will take the risk.

- A business CC, $7200 in 3 balance transfers made in 9/2009. Still making minimum payments
- My business line of credit, $3,250 advance taken 9/2009. Made four payments before I stopped. $22K total balance on this one.
- A personal line of credit, $3,600 advance taken 8/2009. $7,200 total balance on this one. Once again, 4 payments after the last advance.
- Another personal iine of credit $1,400 advance taken 5/2009 (and $6,500 taken 3/2009)... this is the total balance. 6 payments were made after the last advance. This one will be 12 months old by the time I file.

[Not listing the institutions here to maintain a little anonymity and not taunt the giants.]

All the advances were deposited into my business checking account... just as I've been doing for years. On the downside, my 2009 business income wound up coming out very low. (Did I have prospects and hopes? Absolutely!)

Anyway, I AM GOING TO FILE in May or June (making the most recent sins 8 or 9 months old) and see what happens. My attorney says that balance transfers are much less of a problem than advances, and that as a non-wage earner, it's tougher for them to prove I should have known I wouldn't be paying. And, of course, that APs aren't cheap for the creditor either. Bottom line, "We'll see."

My personal expectation is that I might have to throw some of them a few dollars to make them go away. But I've got about 200K of unsecured debt, qualify income wise for a Chapter 7, and my house is under water (so I can use California System 2 exemptions) now. I've decided it's time to get on with my life.

I'm sharing this as an opportunity for the scholars here to analyze and predict. I promise to follow up and tell you how it really goes... My decision is made, but I think adding a real story of real AP risk and results might be quite useful... information is power.

[ready2puke]

I'm in Ca. and my attorney tells me to wait also..I've been waiting. Aug 2008 last payments on some biggies. No suits yet but the wait is aweful..My life is on hold. I need and wait to file really soon...I think I've waited long enough...
Please keep us posted and good luck. I think you'll be fine

[albacore44]

Pretty much in the same boat. 25 cards $186k CC debt, the majority of my sins were in 2007-2008, stopped paying early 2009, waited until just before I figured a lawsuit was coming, and filed 1/23/10 Ca system 2 was able to exempt everything. 25 days until discharge cant get here soon enough

[bk442]

Pretty much in the same boat. 25 cards $186k CC debt, the majority of my sins were in 2007-2008, stopped paying early 2009, waited until just before I figured a lawsuit was coming, and filed 1/23/10 Ca system 2 was able to exempt everything. 25 days until discharge cant get here soon enough

Wow Albacore how does one get that much Credit? I will be filing end of this month. 32k total of credit and Heloc. 53k Boat (magic deck boat). And a 100k upside down house. Can't wait till im over this mess. Gonna miss the boat this summer though. Maybe they won't take it right away hehe. I'm in S. Cal too

[albacore44]

Wow Albacore how does one get that much Credit? I will be filing end of this month. 32k total of credit and Heloc. 53k Boat (magic deck boat). And a 100k upside down house. Can't wait till im over this mess. Gonna miss the boat this summer though. Maybe they won't take it right away hehe. I'm in S. Cal too

well stupidly i was prolonging the agony transfering balances between cards. sorry to hear about the boat, would love to have one of those to play at the river, or some innocent sight seeing in Copper Canyon. I was able to keep my 32' Weekend Warrior and Quads under Ca system 2 since they are paid for.

[keptdigging]

Yeah some of us got really really good at prolonging that agony. I am told by my attorney that because my total unsecured is over 200K, the UST will be sitting in on my 341. The obvious question is "How can you have so much debt and not have serious assets?" Behold the miracle of balance transfers.

My attorney didn't seem particularly concerned and I have good records. But there could be some drama ahead.

It seems we're all having interesting lives.

[albacore44]

Yeah some of us got really really good at prolonging that agony. I am told by my attorney that because my total unsecured is over 200K, the UST will be sitting in on my 341. The obvious question is "How can you have so much debt and not have serious assets?" Behold the miracle of balance transfers.

My attorney didn't seem particularly concerned and I have good records. But there could be some drama ahead.

It seems we're all having interesting lives.

I was told that too about the UST, but it dident happen. My attorneys wife said the UST passes on his clients, because they dont want to take my attorney on since he has won every challenge from the UST and they dont like the embarassment.

[keptdigging]

At the risk of bumping up an old thread, thought I'd close the loop.
I wound up finding my coin collection was worth more than I thought, and decided to sell and spend it down and try to be a no-asset case. Filed when I finally got served by a lawsuit.

By the time I filed, I had 11 months or more on all of my balance transfers. Largest was $7,000 US Bank at 11 months old. But I "cheated" on this one: kept making minimum payments until a month before I filed.

The other 11-12 month old Advances were with B of A and Chase (business line); 3 or 4K each, though in the case of Chase the total on the line was $20K. Chase had sued and they were the ones that forced me to file. (In general, Amex and Chase sued quickly, no one else did at all.)

Once I filed I did not hear a peep from any of my creditors. On $250K of unsecured debt. 341 and discharge could not have gone smoother.

For the education of others here, I wish I had filed at 8 months... it would have been a more interesting data point. I think in general we on this board worry too much about CCs and LOCs generating APs. I should add that my attorney wasn't particularly concerned at 8 months (and she worried plenty about things that never happened.)

I also think it's important that I was represented. Why bother threatening an AP to an attorney who knows you won't follow through with the expense for low odds? She'll just call your bluff.

But I also need to thank the people here for sharing--I was thinking it was fine to file as long as I had 90 days since my last charges. This board saved me from attempting that.

[HHM]

Thanks for coming back and letting us know.

The 12 month rule is the "hyper" conservative length of time. I bet you would have been fine at 8 months, and even 6 months.

The 12 month window is best when the use of credit was questionable, i.e. $10,000 cash advance at a Casino. In the normal circumstances (cash advances for living money, balance transfers etc), and assuming some minimum payments were made, 6-9 months is appropriate for larger balances ($3K+),

[scuguy77]

Was hoping you could apply these 'rules' to our case.

Looking at filing around April. Last CC (and Bill Me Later) charges were in Dec. So April would be outside 90 day window. Charges on all cards were less than $200 (for food, clothes, minor car repair).

There was a balance transfer on one card in Nov of $1350 and that same card was the one we put all the food, household expenses (like clothes, prescriptions etc) which we use to pay in full but then switched to min payment so card went up quick (about $4k over 2 months), again last charges for everything was in Dec. (Dec was trail-off period).

The Bill Me Later (credit via paypal) did have about a dozen charges between Nov-Dec which were mostly for Christmas all of them totaled less than $1100.

Have been making minimum payments on all of them (was going to do that for Jan, Feb and 50% pymts in March).

If we filed in April what is the risk of AP from Bill Me Later? or the one card we did the balance transfer on? (also highest balance card at $6k)

[tobee43]

the main objective of this rule and reason why the court developed this special remedy was based on what if a debtor goes on a "spending spree" before filing bankruptcy. this is the way the courts will view this from here on in.

those that are targeted, it is usually for the charging of "luxury" items and not medical expenses or food. (although, nowadays many creditors will try anything for a penny). these type of charges would be ...well we can use the example of scuguy77's bill me later charges. that would be indeed qualify as a bit questionable.

it also depends on where and when you file. i know when we did, where we filed, the trustee we had would not ever entertain any debt incurred outside the 90 day perimeter, although, i have heard now they are beginning to be a bit more open to the creditors, especially in 13's where the trustee has something to gain. (the only reason i knew this information was it was voluntarily relayed to us by our atty who worked with the district and knew their view on that matter).

we personally didn't experience this problem although we had over 200k worth of debt including much of it cc...all medical expenses. and, we were asked why we had so much cc debt. i produced the medical bills and not one word was said. other than how are you feeling now. (i think she had a heart actually).

my point is, it will mostly depend on what the item was, not even so much when. if you had to take you're child to the er bleeding, i doubt even the most heartless creditor would win the AP.

[scuguy77]

thank you for your reply.

we would be filing N. CA

any particular item charged on bill-me-later was less than $300 (most were under $150) its just in aggregate over the two month period it was about $1000.

the issue with timing is trying to weigh not wanting to get sued (it would be about 3-4 months come April) and dealing with back-taxes (which right now we have no bills yet but once amendments are filed will) and depending how fast taxing authorities are with issuing bills don't want to go and setup a pymt plan only to file a month or 2 later (though not sure if they'll just wait)

[tobee43]

i really don't think you will be getting sued that quickly and even if you did or do, once your bk is discharged you would just file a motion to vacate the judgements and they would gone anyway. so that should not be a reason to wait.

the 1k worth of what maybe you and i would not consider luxury items, tho, could be a problem. so i would wait and make certain they are beyond the 90 day period. the creditor will/could argue you knew in nov and dec you were going to be filing therefore, it was charged with the intention of never paying. even if you went through the trouble of setting up a payment plan for your taxes, it may be a hassle for you a bit, but shouldn't swing your filing date.

again, i would say it's the bill be later that could be concerning. the very worse thing you'd have to pay it, it's very difficult to prove "intentional" fraud and the burden is on the creditor to do so.

[scuguy77]

thank you.

hmm, if we file in April/May how do they know we knew in nov/dec we might file? (though I see what you mean by burden of proof would swing to them post 90 days) and for $1k who knows...

[tobee43]

oh, you'd be surprised.

even our own personal experience was we had to wait two years because we needed (wanted really), to establish residency in our new state to take advantage of this states exemption wildcard. although, we didn't plan a strategy prior to when we knew we had to physically live here for the 2 years to accomplish our goal. although we didn't have to worry very much about using our charge cards really, i was more concerned dodging creditors to prevent them from suing us.

we virtually went underground for those two years, nothing in our names at the time. i know not everyone can just up and leave, as we did after being in the same home for over 30 years. we left no forwarding address for the house we lived in for over 30 years, and to further confuse the situation, every neighbor we spoke with prior to our leaving, we told each person a different state and part of the country. we knew the possibilities of a creditor eventually searching for us by going door to door was very real. (we found out a year or two later a few creditors actually did).

we were lucky because some of the creditors could have petitioned the court to grant a judgment based on the fact that they could not locate us, and, although, they are, by law suppose to send and give proper notification, that's pretty difficult to do when one has no idea where to look! for some reason, and we have no clue why, not a one them opted to proceed, to this day we have no clue why, not even one account was sent to collections, for that matter.

really, when you think about it, most people know months before they are in trouble, the creditors know this. even if one loses there job unexpectedly, and one was living pay check to pay check, you get the idea i'm sure.