Creditor showed up!

[mountanddo]

and I have a lot of purchased music on my iPod,

Your purchased music is in itunes so just erase it and load itunes back up when you get a new one.

[jst4f]

I was just very shaken that they showed up because everything that I have read says that is very rare.yes, we are in middle district Florida.

Now it makes sense. I don't get FL but it seems to be pretty harsh to debtors compared to the rest of country, at least as reported on this forum. Given the age of the purchases, I'd call their bluff if they don't take your first offer. The iTunes can be uploaded and you'll get and iPAD 2.

[justbroke]

Florida is not harsh to debtors! Florida actually has one of the BEST exemptions... if you own your home! This is why the exemptions for other assets were miniscule / non-existence. It's also the reason why most rich people / athletes have homesteads in Florida. The unlimited homestead exemption is perfect if you own your home outright. Whether it's $300,000 or $30,000,000 you just can't lose your homestead to creditors / bankruptcy.

Now, the real problem in Florida is not the system but that the Trustees realize (or realized) that many debtors were fudging the numbers on the claim of exemption for personal property on Schedule B. Florida would only give a $1,000 wildcard exemption for everything other than your car (which was another $1,000). The $4,000 statutory exemption came about that allowed someone that wasn't claiming (or benefiting from) that unlimited homestead exemption, to get another $4,000 wildcard. Prior to last year, in 2011, it was established caselaw that even if you didn't "claim" the homestead exemption, merely keeping your home in a Chapter 7 (or 13) would render the homestead exemption "used". The debtor didn't get the $4,000 wildcard (unused homestead exemption). The Trustees very quickly realized that these debtors with 3,000 square foot homes were claiming they only had $1,000 worth of furniture, tools, clothing, electronics in that large home. This is why the Trustees sent a third party appraiser to the homes to see if there was actually "only" $1,000 worth of property there.

Blame this on the debtors that consistently fudged the numbers; not the system. I am in a District where they routinely (> 90% of the cases) send an appraiser to the home. They did not send one to my home in either my Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 case. I was above board and listed "large" items individually (such as my 2 flat screen TVs). Nothing to hide.

Now a creditor showing up at a 341 Meeting is generally routine. It is very common to find a Credit Union or small local bank show up at 341 Meetings whether you're in Poughkeepsie or Miami. Another common creditor to show up are estranged family members who have grudges; the worst creditor you even want to show up!

I would say that the majority of Floridians that complain about the Trustee conducting an appraisal had something in their schedules that warranted closer inspection. That's just my opinion of following case outcomes the last 3.5 years across the Florida districts.

On the other hand, California is VERY generous... unless you own a $30,000,000 home!

[despritfreya]

No, it's not a load up by any means. We purchased the laptop and camera 3 years ago, the gps over 2 years ago, the iPod about a year and a half ago and the iPad is a 1st gen purchased in march of last year. We were paying on the account up until august and I made several extra payments on the card over the past couple of years, too.

Based upon this I would agree. . . not sure what B&A was expecting to accomplish. You might want to call their bluff. Tell them to come and get the stuff. You will probably never hear from them to make those arrangements. But, just in case you do, be prepared to give the items to them.

Des.

[tobee43]

Florida is not harsh to debtors! Florida actually has one of the BEST exemptions... if you own your home! This is why the exemptions for other assets were miniscule / non-existence. It's also the reason why most rich people / athletes have homesteads in Florida. The unlimited homestead exemption is perfect if you own your home outright. Whether it's $300,000 or $30,000,000 you just can't lose your homestead to creditors / bankruptcy.

Now, the real problem in Florida is not the system but that the Trustees realize (or realized) that many debtors were fudging the numbers on the claim of exemption for personal property on Schedule B. Florida would only give a $1,000 wildcard exemption for everything other than your car (which was another $1,000). The $4,000 statutory exemption came about that allowed someone that wasn't claiming (or benefiting from) that unlimited homestead exemption, to get another $4,000 wildcard. Prior to last year, in 2011, it was established caselaw that even if you didn't "claim" the homestead exemption, merely keeping your home in a Chapter 7 (or 13) would render the homestead exemption "used". The debtor didn't get the $4,000 wildcard (unused homestead exemption). The Trustees very quickly realized that these debtors with 3,000 square foot homes were claiming they only had $1,000 worth of furniture, tools, clothing, electronics in that large home. This is why the Trustees sent a third party appraiser to the homes to see if there was actually "only" $1,000 worth of property there.

Blame this on the debtors that consistently fudged the numbers; not the system. I am in a District where they routinely (> 90% of the cases) send an appraiser to the home. They did not send one to my home in either my Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 case. I was above board and listed "large" items individually (such as my 2 flat screen TVs). Nothing to hide.

Now a creditor showing up at a 341 Meeting is generally routine. It is very common to find a Credit Union or small local bank show up at 341 Meetings whether you're in Poughkeepsie or Miami. Another common creditor to show up are estranged family members who have grudges; the worst creditor you even want to show up!

I would say that the majority of Floridians that complain about the Trustee conducting an appraisal had something in their schedules that warranted closer inspection. That's just my opinion of following case outcomes the last 3.5 years across the Florida districts.

On the other hand, California is VERY generous... unless you own a $30,000,000 home!

jb, just wanted to add one thing about the florida $4000 wildcard exemption you have pointed out, for each Florida resident who does not receive the benefit of a homestead.

we had our choice when we moved to florida to go federal or wait the two years. since, on top of the state versus federal law options, you must also pay attention to the residency requirements. the 2005 revisions to the bankruptcy laws created new residency requirements for debtors. congress wanted to discourage people from moving to states with more liberal exemptions and then filing for bankruptcy. you must, therefore, have lived in a state for two years before you can use that state’s exemptions. if we had lived there for less than 2 years, we would have had to had count back 2 years from the date we filed for bankruptcy and then look at where we had lived for the 180 days (6 months) before that. whichever state you have lived in for the longest time during that 6-month period is the state whose exemptions you can use. some states, though, don’t allow you to use their exemptions unless you currently live in that state. and if you get caught in this gap, you’ll have to use the federal exemptions. that's why we personally had to literally go "underground" for two full years, to establish legal residency in the state.

new jersey is where we came from and they don't even have a homestead exemption it's ....actually theirs reads as :None, but survivorship interest of a spouse in property held as tenancy by the entirety is exempt from creditors of a single spouse. so of course we would have had to use federal exemption had be filed there. florida was much better in their allowance and at the least we had no problem keeping our car.

i also think that the trustees here in florida are doing exactly as jb describes becoming firmer and turning many cases into "asset" cases, mainly because they are. although, i have heard a few whopping stories...example just recently where a trustee made someone sell a trailer here on the forum and the first 5800 was exempt. the trailer sold for 6600 and the auctioneer wanted 2k!! that didn't work out to well for the trustee's percentage, so that example was a bit over board with the trustee going after an asset that really wasn't there. just a comment tho, the trustee had the trailer appraised from the thread and it was suppose to have appraised at 12k, however, only went for 6600k at the auction.

also, i do believe trustee's are beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel, or better said, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is becoming empty so they are hitting hard as i'm certain many trustees made a nice amount the past few years on many people's assets.

[mountanddo]

Florida is not harsh to debtors! Florida actually has one of the BEST exemptions... if you own your home! This is why the exemptions for other assets were miniscule / non-existence. It's also the reason why most rich people / athletes have homesteads in Florida. The unlimited homestead exemption is perfect if you own your home outright. Whether it's $300,000 or $30,000,000 you just can't lose your homestead to creditors / bankruptcy.

Now, the real problem in Florida is not the system but that the Trustees realize (or realized) that many debtors were fudging the numbers on the claim of exemption for personal property on Schedule B. Florida would only give a $1,000 wildcard exemption for everything other than your car (which was another $1,000). The $4,000 statutory exemption came about that allowed someone that wasn't claiming (or benefiting from) that unlimited homestead exemption, to get another $4,000 wildcard. Prior to last year, in 2011, it was established caselaw that even if you didn't "claim" the homestead exemption, merely keeping your home in a Chapter 7 (or 13) would render the homestead exemption "used". The debtor didn't get the $4,000 wildcard (unused homestead exemption). The Trustees very quickly realized that these debtors with 3,000 square foot homes were claiming they only had $1,000 worth of furniture, tools, clothing, electronics in that large home. This is why the Trustees sent a third party appraiser to the homes to see if there was actually "only" $1,000 worth of property there.

Blame this on the debtors that consistently fudged the numbers; not the system. I am in a District where they routinely (> 90% of the cases) send an appraiser to the home. They did not send one to my home in either my Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 case. I was above board and listed "large" items individually (such as my 2 flat screen TVs). Nothing to hide.

Now a creditor showing up at a 341 Meeting is generally routine. It is very common to find a Credit Union or small local bank show up at 341 Meetings whether you're in Poughkeepsie or Miami. Another common creditor to show up are estranged family members who have grudges; the worst creditor you even want to show up!

I would say that the majority of Floridians that complain about the Trustee conducting an appraisal had something in their schedules that warranted closer inspection. That's just my opinion of following case outcomes the last 3.5 years across the Florida districts.

On the other hand, California is VERY generous... unless you own a $30,000,000 home!

So in Florida you are able to keep your $30,000,000 home as long as it's empty. LOL...The water in your pool would probably be worth more than 1k!

[justbroke]

So in Florida you are able to keep your $30,000,000 home as long as it's empty.

It's funny and laughable, but it is entirely true!

The water in your pool would probably be worth more than 1k!

NOW you're thinking like a Florida Trustee! I have never read where a Trustee has claimed the water in the pool, but as Mrs 'Cat and 'Hub can attest, they do go after deposits on file!

In most cases, I'd rather live in California (where System 2 is quite cool) or a State that allows the debtor to choose the Federal Exemption scheme. However, if I did win a bunch of money and put it into a multi-million dollar home... I'd want it to be in Florida or Texas. Regardless of where you live, Trustees are getting tougher. They do not like it when the money dries up since their incentive to even be in the U.S. Trustee's program, is to actually earn fees and commission.

I can tell you that the water in my 27,000 gallon pool is worth about $200 if you ask for the "fill" rate. This is because part of the cost of water is that they expect it to be "returned" to the sewer system. Since the pool water won't "return", you're only charged for the cost of the water and not the waste costs. Very good point though!

I would love that 341 Meeting. The Trustee saying the water is worth $1,000. I'd say... come and get it! I'd make sure that I exempted $200 of it so I could refill my pool later!

[jst4f]

For the record the my house is a couple zeros short of $30M and the pool is only 20,000gal. Right now with so much real estate below water, the California exemptions are very generous and helped us a lot. One thing in common with FL, it costs about $200 to fill a pool. $1000 of pool water? Come and get it! LMAO.

BTW. At the one 341 meeting I attended there were no creditors for the twenty or so cases in the room. Our lawyer had never seen a creditor show up (~2000 cases) but had seen several times when relatives and/or friends showed up with a grudge and offered up information about the debtor since he had listed their personal loans to be discharged. Not pretty. Our lawyer quized us on that issue to be sure we listed those type of loans (we had none) and so we could be prepared for them at the 341. Another great reason to be completely open, honest and complete in your paperwork.

[mountanddo]

but had seen several times when relatives and/or friends showed up with a grudge and offered up information about the debtor since he had listed their personal loans to be discharged. Not pretty.

Just one more reason never to borrow money from relatives or friends!

[ValleYum]

jb, just wanted to add one thing about the florida $4000 wildcard exemption you have pointed out, for each Florida resident who does not receive the benefit of a homestead.
K

we had our choice when we moved to florida to go federal or wait the two years. since, on top of the state versus federal law options, you must also pay attention to the residency requirements. the 2005 revisions to the bankruptcy laws created new residency requirements for debtors. congress wanted to discourage people from moving to states with more liberal exemptions and then filing for bankruptcy. you must, therefore, have lived in a state for two years before you can use that state’s exemptions. if we had lived there for less than 2 years, we would have had to had count back 2 years from the date we filed for bankruptcy and then look at where we had lived for the 180 days (6 months) before that. whichever state you have lived in for the longest time during that 6-month period is the state whose exemptions you can use. some states, though, don’t allow you to use their exemptions unless you currently live in that state. and if you get caught in this gap, you’ll have to use the federal exemptions. that's why we personally had to literally go "underground" for two full years, to establish legal residency in the state.

new jersey is where we came from and they don't even have a homestead exemption <snipped>

Tobee:

Forgive me if this sounds dense; but how were Florida's exemptions better for you (as a non-homeowner at the time) than the federal exemptions? You could have claimed at least triple the amount for your vehicle (over Florida's 1k) and you also would have had that nice wildcard to use in lieu of a homestead to protect cash, jewelry, etc. The wildcards would have doubled since y'all filed jointly, too.

I've seen you mention several times about 'going underground' for 2 years so you could use the Florida exemptions and I have always wondered why.

Yes, Valle is nosey! LOL

[mountanddo]

Tobee:

Forgive me if this sounds dense; but how were Florida's exemptions better for you (as a non-homeowner at the time) than the federal exemptions? You could have claimed at least triple the amount for your vehicle (over Florida's 1k) and you also would have had that nice wildcard to use in lieu of a homestead to protect cash, jewelry, etc. The wildcards would have doubled since y'all filed jointly, too.

I've seen you mention several times about 'going underground' for 2 years so you could use the Florida exemptions and I have always wondered why.

Yes, Valle is nosey! LOL

and...what exactly IS going underground? I had 9 months to wait before I could file Chapter 7 but got sued before that time so ended up having to file 13. I wish I could of gone underground for those 9 months to wait it out.

[tobee43]

i guess i have some splaining to do

ok, if we didn't wait the 2 years to get wildcard exemption we most likely would have had to buy back our car. we would have had to file federal which didn't leave us much at all in the way of exemptions. we had a total of 8k worth of exemptions while the federal was substantially lower. we wanted that wildcard that the feds didn't offer.

we did go "underground" by leaving our home of 33 years with no trail to follow, no forwarding address, no trace. we told our neighbors 4 different states where we going to, not including florida in the mix, just in case someone came looking for us each neighbor would have given a different place. no one, NO ONE knew where we were other than a few family members. when we first came down we stayed with friends and then we rented a place from a relative and they put all utilities in their name for us so no one could track us that way. we did obtain new drivers lic. to establish residency. we were listed as homeless for the sometime.

Valle i don't mind your nose

we needed to dodge them all (creditors) until we could establish our residency and also we had some questions on the petition that we needed to be able to answer "NO" to, and those all dealt with a time periods. we didn't get sued because, against everyone's advise, what i did, was paid all credit cards up until we filed, (on line) that turned out to be a win win...held off the suits and also didn't give the creditors time to put anything negative on our credit reports, thus we were in the very high 600's right after our filing. we had over 200k worth of medical expenses and being hunted at the time.

[justbroke]

Relatives and neighbors at your 341 Meeting is never a good thing! It is almost always a grudge and they will almost always say that you lied on your schedules or that you are hiding assets! Personally, I'd rather have Bass & Associates at my 341 Meeting!

[Freddy03]

So basically you purchased 3 computers, a GPS and a camera at Best Buy.

When did you purchase these items? How much money did you put down, if anything? What was the full purchase price? How much did you pay on the account before you filed bk?

B&A rarely shows up at a 341. My guess is that you did a "load up" on the Best Buy account within a relatively short time before you filed bk. If so, and with all due respect to the other posters, Best Buy/HSBC is well within its rights to demand payment or the return of its property. Now, if you purchased those items say 2 years ago, then B&A is making a big deal over nothing but still within its rights to protect its client's interests. So, the real questions is, "when did you purchase the items"?

Des.

nevermind I didn't see the other replies..lol

[GoingDown]

No, it's not a load up by any means. We purchased the laptop and camera 3 years ago, the gps over 2 years ago, the iPod about a year and a half ago and the iPad is a 1st gen purchased in march of last year. We were paying on the account up until august and I made several extra payments on the card over the past couple of years, too. The only reason that I would like to negotiate to keep the iPad and iPod is because I have to have the iPad for work, so I would end up buying another one anyway, and I have a lot of purchased music on my iPod, but if I have to turn it back in, that's fine.

I was just very shaken that they showed up because everything that I have read says that is very rare.yes, we are in middle district Florida.

In this case, the merchandise is worth almost nothing at this point to Best Buy. This is a scare tactic on their part. I would've just said to them at the 341 meeting, "you want it, you've got it." I wouldn't pay them a penny for it. And this way, whatever it cost them to send someone there to the meeting was an absolute waste for them. All they would get is worthless merchandise back.

It reminds me of when some very agressive debt collectors show up at debtor's font doors to talk about their debts. It is not a cost effective way of doing collection business (which is why they prefer using nothing but phone calls), but it sure shakes up and scares the debtor.