341 meeting went bad

[Jaxharley99]

Went to our 341 meeting for Chapter 13, and the Trustee ripped us apart.
We filed thru a paralegal, so we were not represented at the meeting.
Our paralegal did not file P&L's, paystubs, tax returns, etc.
Our income was too high for a 36 month plan, and my boat and Harley are to be turned over to the creditors, amounting to about $20k in equity.
We felt we got a royal screwing. I am meeting with an attorney tomorrow, to refile and rework this mess.

[momofthree]

Unfortunately, you've experienced what many ch.13 pro-se filers encounter. An experienced ch.13 attorney is worth every penny of their fee. Good luck with your re-file and keep us posted.

[ryan]

Was there any reason you did not use an attorney?

[Jaxharley99]

My CPA is also a paralegal.
Met with a 40 year BK Attorney today, found out
my paperwork on the 13 was a total mess.
Mortgage in arrears was not included in the BK, trying to do a strip on the 2nd
at 75% instead of 100%, missing 50k in unsecured debt in the filing.
Paralegal told me he amended it, but was not. He also told me they can't take my Harley, Attorney says otherwise since we have 2 other primary vehicles.

This attorney wants $4k total, half now up front. OUCH!
Pretty sure we are going to start the whole process over again.

[momofthree]

You should consult with at least 2 more attorneys & make sure the one you choose specializes in ch.13.

[minan]

Having an atty is crucial. I thought about going it alone, however once I researched the process and saw what was entailed, I quickly changed my mind. Although it's been hard to get the paperwork together etc, having an atty was the best move.

Be sure to interview multiple lawyers. I interviewed 4. Also recommend going with a lawyer who specializes in BK or only does BK.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Hopefully the lawyer can help clean up mess made by the paralegal.

[empowered]

Jaxharley99, wow, that sounds pretty bad. I'm sorry it went that way with you. I contemplated using a paralegal service for the re-do of a dismissed Chapter 13 as a Chapter 7 but realized after questioning that the paralegal knew nothing more than I did about how a second filing in a different state should be handled. I had no assets and am a consumer debt filer so my Chapter 7 was simple enough to do on my own (well, pre-341 it seems so anyway).

But for the 13 I did retain an attorney and as much as I wouldn't want to do business with them again, they did seem to get the filing and work for my plan accepted done, one way or another.

It's kind of ironic how one needs to learn a certain amount about the bankruptcy process to even be able to make a good assessment of whether to file pro se, through a paralegal, or to use an attorney. And then, unless you learn a fair amount about the process, you can't really tell whether your attorney is doing a good job for you based on anything but the results of the 341.

What a difficult problem this is.

[justbroke]

I'm sorry, but using a paralegal to "prepare" the paperwork, which is all they can legally do, is not the same as filing "pro se". A pro se filer must actually do all the work. Exempt property which can be exempted. Create the Plan of Reorganization. File the appropriate papers!

It deserves repeating that hiring a ParaLegal, CPA or even a "Document Preparer" is nothing more than a paid typist. You must use that mindset when filing pro se. I place no blame on the Paralegal as they absolutely cannot even suggest that you "move that number there" or "consider this".

On the positive side, I'm glad that you have taken charge, dismissed your case, and are working with an attorney. I hardly ever suggest or even recommend that a person file a Chapter 13 pro se. There are a few of us here on BKForum who have, and we'll be the first to tell you.

[empowered]

I hope my own post didn't mislead anyone into thinking that I believe that using a paralegal to prepare the documents is the same thing as filing pro se. In my limited experience, if you use a paralegal or other document preparation service, part of the deal is that you take the documents and file pro se -- in other words, you don't have the benefit of an attorney to get through the process. I did come across one nationwide preparation service that had an attorney or two they would ask questions of before preparation, but you would still be filing the paperwork pro se after it was prepared.

Just thought I'd clarify what I meant since I used a bit of possibly misleading shorthand in my post above.

[LadyInTheRed]

If this "paralegal" was not under the direct supervision of an attorney, he is a "Document Preparer" and therefore simply a typist. The debtor IS a pro se filer unless he hired an attorney and that attorney's name appears on his petition.

If the Document Preparer acted as anything more than a typist and did not make the disclosures required by section 110 of the bankruptcy code, Jaxharley99 can petition the court to order the Document Preparer to compensate him for his actual damages, plus $2,000 or twice what he paid the preparer, plus his attorney fees and costs to file the petition:

Jaxharley99, read Section 110 which governs the conduct of a document preparer. If this person violated anything in this section, talk to your attorney about filing a petition. This guy could wind up paying your attorney fees!

I do blame the paralegal if he did anything more than act as a typist and did not comply with Section 110.

[momofthree]

If this "paralegal" was not under the direct supervision of an attorney, he is a "Document Preparer" and therefore simply a typist. The debtor IS a pro se filer unless he hired an attorney and that attorney's name appears on his petition.

If the Document Preparer acted as anything more than a typist and did not make the disclosures required by section 110 of the bankruptcy code, Jaxharley99 can petition the court to order the Document Preparer to compensate him for his actual damages, plus $2,000 or twice what he paid the preparer, plus his attorney fees and costs to file the petition:



Jaxharley99, read Section 110 which governs the conduct of a document preparer. If this person violated anything in this section, talk to your attorney about filing a petition. This guy could wind up paying your attorney fees!

I do blame the paralegal if he did anything more than act as a typist and did not comply with Section 110.

Wow, the following statement alone violates the code:
"He also told me they can't take my Harley"

[Jaxharley99]

My preparer is also my CPA, so I don't want to come down on him too hard.
I am prepared to get out of this 13, sell off my assets, then jump back in with an attorney.
Seeing $4k to $5 k fees due to a mean, bad azz local credit union that supposely fights to the death. Anyone in the Jacksonville area stripped a 2nd with these guys?

[LadyInTheRed]

My preparer is also my CPA, so I don't want to come down on him too hard.
I am prepared to get out of this 13, sell off my assets, then jump back in with an attorney.
Seeing $4k to $5 k fees due to a mean, bad azz local credit union that supposely fights to the death. Anyone in the Jacksonville area stripped a 2nd with these guys?

You should at least bring this law to his attention so he thinks twice before doing this again. His next client may not be so forgiving. You also should ask for a refund of whatever fee you paid him.

Go for free consultations for 2 or 3 attorneys before you start selling your assets. It may not be necessary.

[LadyInTheRed]

Wow, the following statement alone violates the code:
"He also told me they can't take my Harley"

Yep.

Arguably, a lot of us give legal advice on this board all the time. Depending on how we phrase something, if someone relies on something we say and things don't work out for them, they could come back and sue us for the unauthorized practice of law or they could report us to their District Attorney who could choose to prosecute. Of course, they'd have to find out who we are, but that is possible. I don't know about other states, but in California, simply saying "I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice" doesn't get you off the hook. If it quacks like a duck...

I don't think most people on this board are likely to sue or report somebody for what they post here, but it could happen.

[justbroke]

I read that whole part about the "He also told me they can't take my Harley". I thought it was something to do with the Trustee. The Paralegal was absolutely "practicing" law without a license when they made that remark. I'm sure your "real" attorney would love to know this.